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toibidien
05-02-2010, 01:15 PM
-Increase drop rate of ALL dungeons by a significant amount.
-add an npc that sells dungeons at a reasonable price to keep the prices regulated
- increase the drop rate of 1 slot / non slot osmium and redosmium peices (so they can be vendored) by ALOT to give people spending money in the first place.
-OR even add a second version of the free dungeon quest for sods/eods/FT's

CNJRP
05-02-2010, 01:36 PM
No need for multiple threads, also I disagree with this suggestion.

FelixFelice
05-02-2010, 01:48 PM
All of those are bad ideas except the dungeon cards. The only cards I want the npcs to have though are
A. Weakened Dungeon Cards (forever because they are for the new low lvl players)
B. DX Dungeon Cards (For a limited time upon release)
C. New Dungeon Cards when an update comes out (For a limited time of course.)

toibidien
05-02-2010, 04:07 PM
The entire purpose of my suggestion is to help the economy. Your ideas on the other hand would do little to nothing for the economy.

Doing any of these will at least help the economy out a little bit. If you disagree with that then all I have to say is lol.

Sheep
05-02-2010, 04:08 PM
stop spamming your bad ideas >_>
you must be really butthurt, the economy and drop-rate is fine as it is. Although, the price for pc dmg helms are way out of whack. +6's are more than i sold my +7's.

CNJRP
05-02-2010, 05:02 PM
-Increase drop rate of ALL dungeons by a significant amount.
I disagree because there are those of us who have dealt with the low drop rate and still managed good gear. Raising the drop rate only screws those of us who have worked hard for what we have.


-add an npc that sells dungeons at a reasonable price to keep the prices regulated
Simple supply and demand, because a dungeon like Volcanic Citadel drops 3-4 UCH on average per run, it makes sense that the entry items would be 4m~5m. However, I can see adding the "weakened" dungeon entry items to an NPC for a reasonable price.

- increase the drop rate of 1 slot / non slot osmium and redosmium peices (so they can be vendored) by ALOT to give people spending money in the first place.
I disagree, the drop rate isn't that bad already and we don't need everything being like how "Patren, Patren" was

-OR even add a second version of the free dungeon quest for sods/eods/FT's
I don't see a need.



My comments to your suggestion are in bold within the quote. However, I will suggest now that the botters are more in-check that Chaos Lamps are NPCable for 250K again.

LastHour
05-02-2010, 07:12 PM
stop spamming your bad ideas >_>
you must be really butthurt, the economy and drop-rate is fine as it is. Although, the price for pc dmg helms are way out of whack. +6's are more than i sold my +7's.

The economy is far from stable along with the drop rate. I'd go over all the things fundamentally wrong with this system but I doubt many here would truly get it.

@CNJRP [guess I will for you on a few topics]: I disagree on your view of price ceilings [dungeons being sold by npcs], its not entirely as simple as supply and demand. FT2 is an example of a dungeon that has little demand and little supply, so why can be the price be higher than a dungeon of higher demand? Rarity, these entries are not found as easily and the demand has little other options to resort to than to give in to the prices the suppliers set, despite that there seems to be an equal number of suppliers and the people who demand it. Its price does not correlate to its profit long term without mistakes, pots, odd circles and everything else that a party of seven has to incur costs for to run it once] because of the seemingly agreed upon boundary of prices by the sellers.

About drop rate: Also disagree here. Some things are unstable and do need fixing, just because you made it work does it mean the system is fair. The value of droprate adjustment could certainly be more than open for debate though [remember though that droprate affects only how often an item DROPS not what DOES drop, I doubt anyone here would even notice a 10x increase in droprate seeing as how 90% of people's income comes from chests in dungeons which have a 100% droprate already]. I think many people confuse the terms, drop quality is what happens when a item drops so a droprate increase would only really be noticed in more easily obtainable entries, you would never notice the rest of it I can guarantee that.

toibidien
05-02-2010, 07:43 PM
The economy is far from stable along with the drop rate. I'd go over all the things fundamentally wrong with this system but I doubt many here would truly get it. ......
.

Thank you.

bout time somebody talk some reason into these people.

IStormI
05-02-2010, 08:48 PM
for new players (and since cabal are getting new players every now and then) some of the items seen on ah are indeed unreasonable. At least bring prices down for the titaniums and phery crafts and such. Gloves and boots amp for stit are reasonable and same for the osmiums but dungeon keys such as rs and lid and even eod (even with the new ring update) should be increased in drop for new level players. At least let them experience trascender skills, up to them to continue after 100 if they want to.

CNJRP
05-02-2010, 11:41 PM
The economy is far from stable along with the drop rate. I'd go over all the things fundamentally wrong with this system but I doubt many here would truly get it.

@CNJRP [guess I will for you on a few topics]: I disagree on your view of price ceilings [dungeons being sold by npcs], its not entirely as simple as supply and demand. FT2 is an example of a dungeon that has little demand and little supply, so why can be the price be higher than a dungeon of higher demand? Rarity, these entries are not found as easily and the demand has little other options to resort to than to give in to the prices the suppliers set, despite that there seems to be an equal number of suppliers and the people who demand it. Its price does not correlate to its profit long term without mistakes, pots, odd circles and everything else that a party of seven has to incur costs for to run it once] because of the seemingly agreed upon boundary of prices by the sellers.

About drop rate: Also disagree here. Some things are unstable and do need fixing, just because you made it work does it mean the system is fair. The value of droprate adjustment could certainly be more than open for debate though [remember though that droprate affects only how often an item DROPS not what DOES drop, I doubt anyone here would even notice a 10x increase in droprate seeing as how 90% of people's income comes from chests in dungeons which have a 100% droprate already]. I think many people confuse the terms, drop quality is what happens when a item drops so a droprate increase would only really be noticed in more easily obtainable entries, you would never notice the rest of it I can guarantee that.

I can't argue with FTB2f, however in my eyes all the solo-able dungeons are fairly reasonable. Excluding EoDb1f maybe because of the merga ring which was recently introduced. Another event like the bluesock one which injects a ton of entry items into to the market may settle prices.

As for drops, I believe any universal increase on the droprates will screw the players who have already worked for a piece or two of "good" gear. Why would I think that? Sometime in the past six months OGPlanet had one of their "events" and gave players 50% increase in droprates for the weekend. I had never seen so many forcium amp drops pop up in a short period of time. If I remember correctly, a 14% s.amp weapon(not GS or DK) had also dropped that very weekend as well. Sure the demand for forcium amp is high, but overtime with increased droprates I foresee the price declining the same way UCHH since two additional CA channels.

LastHour
05-03-2010, 03:03 AM
I can't argue with FTB2f, however in my eyes all the solo-able dungeons are fairly reasonable. Excluding EoDb1f maybe because of the merga ring which was recently introduced. Another event like the bluesock one which injects a ton of entry items into to the market may settle prices.

As for drops, I believe any universal increase on the droprates will screw the players who have already worked for a piece or two of "good" gear. Why would I think that? Sometime in the past six months OGPlanet had one of their "events" and gave players 50% increase in droprates for the weekend. I had never seen so many forcium amp drops pop up in a short period of time. If I remember correctly, a 14% s.amp weapon(not GS or DK) had also dropped that very weekend as well. Sure the demand for forcium amp is high, but overtime with increased droprates I foresee the price declining the same way UCHH since two additional CA channels.

Trust me, I've seen much higher droprates and it did not altar gameplay in any more imba items than normal. Whatever you saw during that weekend is impossible to confirm, just because a forci amp is on AH or in a shop does not mean it dropped that same day. Players looking to sell forci amp previously owned could've simply lined up with 1-2 more forci amp drops in the game that were being sold. Items also seem to drop in waves according to the design of the system as explained by a Euro GM, this could've also lined up with the droprate increase making it appear the wave of new forci amp was the result of the event. I guarantee you that even at a 500x droprate, NA does not have the farming population to drop more than 5-6 forci amps within a single weekend from PF, so I don't know how your getting this saturation of end-game gear from a mere 50% increase. Remember droprates have nothing to do with drop quality, the chance is always the same regardless. If it is .00013% lets say, you will need to kill around 7700 monsters [maybe cornus in this case] to have a decent shot at it that DROP an item, still not an easy task.

CNJRP
05-03-2010, 09:30 AM
Trust me, I've seen much higher droprates and it did not altar gameplay in any more imba items than normal. Whatever you saw during that weekend is impossible to confirm, just because a forci amp is on AH or in a shop does not mean it dropped that same day. Players looking to sell forci amp previously owned could've simply lined up with 1-2 more forci amp drops in the game that were being sold. Items also seem to drop in waves according to the design of the system as explained by a Euro GM, this could've also lined up with the droprate increase making it appear the wave of new forci amp was the result of the event. I guarantee you that even at a 500x droprate, NA does not have the farming population to drop more than 5-6 forci amps within a single weekend from PF, so I don't know how your getting this saturation of end-game gear from a mere 50% increase. Remember droprates have nothing to do with drop quality, the chance is always the same regardless. If it is .00013% lets say, you will need to kill around 7700 monsters [maybe cornus in this case] to have a decent shot at it that DROP an item, still not an easy task.

I'm not confusing drop rate with drop quality, so you really don't need to keep repeating yourself on that. Either way I'm still against any sort of universal rate increase from what I have seen after that mere 50% bonus. The mass forcium amp drops could have been a coincidence, sure. Either way I'm still against it as if I can "make the system work", why can't others?


EDIT: Not to say I'm against an increase in lower maps such as UG or maybe even MF.

Rastan
05-03-2010, 01:24 PM
The economy is fine as it is,it's community driven,so the problem is the players,no one wants to go farm mobs for drops anymore because it's tedious and time consuming,there just aren't as many NA players dedicated to the grind as there are Korean players so the economy will suffer,all ppl want to do is buy stuff in cash shop for quick alz.

The drop rate is fine as it is,if you don't like your drops then buy premium and a bb+ and use the 50% bonus then go farm,if your expecting an rw-3 or a seh off of one run then your sorely mistaken,it's about quantity of runs in this ungodly grindfest,not quality.

LastHour
05-03-2010, 02:35 PM
I'm not confusing drop rate with drop quality, so you really don't need to keep repeating yourself on that. Either way I'm still against any sort of universal rate increase from what I have seen after that mere 50% bonus. The mass forcium amp drops could have been a coincidence, sure. Either way I'm still against it as if I can "make the system work", why can't others?


EDIT: Not to say I'm against an increase in lower maps such as UG or maybe even MF.

Ex: I got a forci amp at 140 in PF, so why can't others get it? l-u-c-k. I still don't know why your dead set that 50% made a difference, if it truly did then perhaps a multitude of my premium friends [I'm not prem] should've found something more than alz or a non-slot Red-osm GS in PF after all this time. As I said in another thread, the saturation by hackers has vastly confused the masses on the true drop rate of such items. Your on venus no doubt which seems to have a high proportion of these items. Whether tang is legit or not is not the implication here, but you don't think they're all just strolling around in full legit forci amp/ eox +8s do you? Heck no, a good portion of that has come from hackers or GM creation. No one can tell if something is legit if they buy it so I'm not accusing them of any wrong doing, but simply pointing out if you were to edit out the damage hackers did as most games would do, you would have quite an eye opener as to how the game really works.

Just because you lucked out in the system does not mean you have divine proof it is not flawed. One is never a representation of a whole population.

CNJRP
05-03-2010, 04:10 PM
Ex: I got a forci amp at 140 in PF, so why can't others get it? l-u-c-k. I still don't know why your dead set that 50% made a difference, if it truly did then perhaps a multitude of my premium friends [I'm not prem] should've found something more than alz or a non-slot Red-osm GS in PF after all this time. As I said in another thread, the saturation by hackers has vastly confused the masses on the true drop rate of such items. Your on venus no doubt which seems to have a high proportion of these items. Whether tang is legit or not is not the implication here, but you don't think they're all just strolling around in full legit forci amp/ eox +8s do you? Heck no, a good portion of that has come from hackers or GM creation. No one can tell if something is legit if they buy it so I'm not accusing them of any wrong doing, but simply pointing out if you were to edit out the damage hackers did as most games would do, you would have quite an eye opener as to how the game really works.

Just because you lucked out in the system does not mean you have divine proof it is not flawed. One is never a representation of a whole population.

I have not "lucked out" in the system at all, I just dealt with it. Back when UCM were 400K each and FCH were 250K~300K each I ran over 300 lids at 12X and starting building my gear from there, not even a single good drop(unless you count sword amp s.tit boots). Although, lid was much more profitable back then so let me use a recent example. Back in December and early January we had the blue sock event if you recall, managed to save up and use up over 120 SoDs to get a nice chunk of alz(about 550m), best drop being a DEX rune.

How exactly did I "luck" out of the system? If I can "make it work" why can't others? Too lazy to actually farm for some gear, and want it to be easier?

LuckyCharms
05-03-2010, 04:26 PM
You want luck? Eat the charms.

LastHour
05-03-2010, 05:09 PM
I have not "lucked out" in the system at all, I just dealt with it. Back when UCM were 400K each and FCH were 250K~300K each I ran over 300 lids at 12X and starting building my gear from there, not even a single good drop(unless you count sword amp s.tit boots). Although, lid was much more profitable back then so let me use a recent example. Back in December and early January we had the blue sock event if you recall, managed to save up and use up over 120 SoDs to get a nice chunk of alz(about 550m), best drop being a DEX rune.

How exactly did I "luck" out of the system? If I can "make it work" why can't others? Too lazy to actually farm for some gear, and want it to be easier?

So you acknowledge a decent portion came from events, which are other variables not to be relied upon for "farming" since they bypass typical limitations. You're running LiD at 12x over duoing FT/eod2 and other dungeons to run the lowest of them all? This just proves the fundamental economic problem of dungeons in this game, that profit does not correlate to time invested and/or difficulty in high dungeons. Higher dungeons should have more incentive to be run over lower ones or they become worthless additions and do not progress gameplay. Drop quality improvements in higher dungeons is what I advocate, so that we have reason to move on finally past the same dungeon we've already done 1000 times no? Its a different mindset that helps improve the psychological drain of farming, that we're actually going somewhere with all of it and slowly moving on to bigger and better challenges. The fix in this progression of drop quality from FT and above dungeons to properly line up with the LiD to VC range is what I see as cabal's major economic problem. Maps in my honest opinion should have much higher drop rates to supply inventories for non-slot red osmium and/or forcium, but with the correct lowering of the drop ratio for end-game gear so as not to unbalance the system. You made your income off of dungeons [which I might also add has 100% drop rate and is unaffected by changes and has no place in the drop rate argument], so please do not speak for maps unless you can make similar arguments that a stable income can be obtained from them. [PF mainly]

EST may have recognized some of this problem but went about it poorly and added newer dungeons with more skewed drop ratios. Sadly, it seems the population here is too dense to realize yet another economic problem is on the rise in the existence of weakened dungeons. Luckily that means it seems few have yet to abuse it.

CNJRP
05-03-2010, 08:57 PM
1)So you acknowledge a decent portion came from events, which are other variables not to be relied upon for "farming" since they bypass typical limitations.
You're running LiD at 12x over duoing FT/eod2 and other dungeons to run the lowest of them all? This just proves the fundamental economic problem of dungeons in this game, that profit does not correlate to time invested and/or difficulty in high dungeons. Higher dungeons should have more incentive to be run over lower ones or they become worthless additions and do not progress gameplay. Drop quality improvements in higher dungeons is what I advocate, so that we have reason to move on finally past the same dungeon we've already done 1000 times no? Its a different mindset that helps improve the psychological drain of farming, that we're actually going somewhere with all of it and slowly moving on to bigger and better challenges. The fix in this progression of drop quality from FT and above dungeons to properly line up with the LiD to VC range is what I see as cabal's major economic problem. Maps in my honest opinion should have much higher drop rates to supply inventories for non-slot red osmium and/or forcium, but with the 2) correct lowering of the drop ratio for end-game gear so as not to unbalance the system. You made your income off of dungeons3) [which I might also add has 100% drop rate and is unaffected by changes and has no place in the drop rate argument, so please do not speak for maps unless you can make similar arguments that a stable income can be obtained from them. [PF mainly]

EST may have recognized some of this problem but went about it poorly and added newer dungeons with more skewed drop ratios. Sadly, it seems the population here is too dense to realize yet another economic problem is on the rise in the existence of weakened dungeons. Luckily that means it seems few have yet to abuse it.


Responded to main points in your post, which I bolded and numbered.

1) Part of my income (for about a month) did come from the blue socks, a single event. About 40% of the sods were from farming in MF, the event mainly provided an incentive for me to farm.

2) Wait, so you're saying to actually lower the rate at which forcium amp drops in PF to compensate for increased drop rate? I don't mind that because that solved my problem I had with an increase rate in PF.

3) Yes, the chests do have a 100% drop rate, which isn't the only reason form of income in a dungeon. Also, as I said before my only objection to an increased rate in PF was forcium amp becoming more abundant.

LastHour
05-03-2010, 09:16 PM
Responded to main points in your post, which I bolded and numbered.

1) Part of my income (for about a month) did come from the blue socks, a single event. About 40% of the sods were from farming in MF, the event mainly provided an incentive for me to farm.

2) Wait, so you're saying to actually lower the rate at which forcium amp drops in PF to compensate for increased drop rate? I don't mind that because that solved my problem I had with an increase rate in PF.

3) Yes, the chests do have a 100% drop rate, which isn't the only reason form of income in a dungeon. Also, as I said before my only objection to an increased rate in PF was forcium amp becoming more abundant.

Seems we have reached equal terms. Only reason I said it doesn't necessarily affect dungeons is the event of getting something decent enough to sell in a dungeon is a rare enough event that it is of little significance or noticeable [like getting extra UCH in VC off mob, (eox +7 off mobs in ft2 or amp stuff, is very, very rare)]

rinoa
05-05-2010, 05:36 PM
the drop rates need improvement the fact that you can never get a dungeon entry unless you grind for 6 hours then you will be lucky for 2 drops of anything but alz.

thanatos313
05-06-2010, 10:49 AM
The economy is fine as it is,it's community driven,so the problem is the players,no one wants to go farm mobs for drops anymore because it's tedious and time consuming,there just aren't as many NA players dedicated to the grind as there are Korean players so the economy will suffer,all ppl want to do is buy stuff in cash shop for quick alz.

The drop rate is fine as it is,if you don't like your drops then buy premium and a bb+ and use the 50% bonus then go farm,if your expecting an rw-3 or a seh off of one run then your sorely mistaken,it's about quantity of runs in this ungodly grindfest,not quality.

i dont think anybody could say it any better.

Spur
05-07-2010, 08:07 AM
it depends on the time it takes u per dungeon
lid = 6min no bm profit 1.5m avg
rs = 9min no bm profit 2m avg
eod = 19min no bm profit 2m avg
sod = 12min no bm profit 5m avg
ft1 = 19min bm 5m avg
some dungeons usually do have better averages but higher end dungeons can drop items u wont ever find in the lower ones. with everyone only running for avg profit all u will see is lots of alz and no end game items to buy

EduShielder
05-12-2010, 11:04 AM
How about this? Though it may not happen but just a thought. When you get an EPIC item such as Epaulet of Fighter +7, you can NPC it for a good amount of alz like 500m.

Cause sometimes, not much players can buy items that you want to sell since it's kind of hard to make alz on this game.