PDA

View Full Version : Learn2Bm2



Pages : [1] 2

WIpwns
09-23-2010, 07:32 PM
http://forum.cabalonline.com/showthread.php?t=167648
here u go merc nabs, time to remove your silly lances from your silly bar

Spur
09-23-2010, 07:41 PM
u serious? lol
terra / fire and aqua lances have the highest dps in combo. not everyone learns their skills according to the bm2 bar

iSeeYou123
09-23-2010, 11:10 PM
u serious? lol
terra / fire and aqua lances have the highest dps in combo. not everyone learns their skills according to the bm2 bar

+1 brah

WIpwns
09-24-2010, 02:27 AM
u serious? lol
terra / fire and aqua lances have the highest dps in combo.

sorry this thread is about bm2 not combo :)

RatzaTM
09-24-2010, 03:27 AM
:)))

so much love around here

WIpwns
09-24-2010, 03:33 AM
:)))

so much love around here

mhmm

Spur
09-24-2010, 04:15 AM
sorry this thread is about bm2 not combo :)

no this thread is about wizzies. 3 lances is a must have on a wiz cause of their dps in combo. our buffs are also must haves. after these please tell me how u can improve my bm2 bar with the amount of skill points left

RatzaTM
09-24-2010, 04:19 AM
Thread Title : Learn2Bm2 ... not Learn2SkillWI

The whole idea is for people to understand that using lances in BM2 is wrong. I myself have terra, fire and aqua lance, and I do use them, but never in my BM2 bar, just the Bm1 bar and PVP one. People must understand that they have to invest points in 3 lances and lots of cannons, but must use only cannons in BM2.

You need those 3 lances nobody denied it, but you don't need them for BM2.

Deathlymonkey
09-24-2010, 04:53 AM
Thread Title : Learn2Bm2 ... not Learn2SkillWI

The whole idea is for people to understand that using lances in BM2 is wrong. I myself have terra, fire and aqua lance, and I do use them, but never in my BM2 bar, just the Bm1 bar and PVP one. People must understand that they have to invest points in 3 lances and lots of cannons, but must use only cannons in BM2.

You need those 3 lances nobody denied it, but you don't need them for BM2.

Bm1 bar? Let me lol at that :)

RatzaTM
09-24-2010, 05:08 AM
Bm1 bar? Let me lol at that :)

Should I draw the conclusion that you never go to TG ? :)
You only got stun combo bar and BM2 bar ?

Don't know about you, but my bars are :

F1 : PVE stunlock
F2 : PVP / BM1 dps combo (no stuns on this one)
F3 : BM2 bar (no lances on it)
F4 : Buffs

Don't tell me you use the stunlock PVE combo in TG :) How many warriors can you kill with Electric Field, after all :)))))

Spur
09-24-2010, 05:35 AM
Thread Title : Learn2Bm2 ... not Learn2SkillWI

The whole idea is for people to understand that using lances in BM2 is wrong. I myself have terra, fire and aqua lance, and I do use them, but never in my BM2 bar, just the Bm1 bar and PVP one. People must understand that they have to invest points in 3 lances and lots of cannons, but must use only cannons in BM2.

You need those 3 lances nobody denied it, but you don't need them for BM2.

then u really had no idea y he posted that chart... the main reason is cause hes laughing at the dps of lances during bm2. the thing u dont get is i have 12 skills in my bm2 bar for maximum dps so please tell me how to get 12 skills while having 3 lances and not using them

RatzaTM
09-24-2010, 05:43 AM
Just because you decided to use Completer and GM at 20 or I don't know why you need 12 skills, doesn't quite make it maximum dps. Sometimes, casting 5k dmg multiples times is better than casting 8k once. My BM2 bar has 10 skills, the most important ones, and no lances, just cannons and the high-rank skills, in order of damage per second. GM and Comp are at 12, the others are at 20, and they all cast just fine, without the need for 2 extras.

You can skip Weaken and Resist Intension if you're really running out of slots.

Spur
09-24-2010, 05:54 AM
Just because you decided to use Completer and GM at 20 or I don't know why you need 12 skills, doesn't quite make it maximum dps. Sometimes, casting 5k dmg multiples times is better than casting 8k once. My BM2 bar has 10 skills, the most important ones, and no lances, just cannons and the high-rank skills, in order of damage per second. GM and Comp are at 12, the others are at 20, and they all cast just fine, without the need for 2 extras.

You can skip Weaken and Resist Intension if you're really running out of slots.

im not running out of slots, im running out of skill points. lol lvl 12 comp and gm? then my cannons deal more then them.. as i stated like last year
8k+4ks > 5k+5k

RatzaTM
09-24-2010, 06:02 AM
I was talking about how many times you can cast the GM in a 60s time-frame for example, not a combination of other skills. The 8+4 vs 5+5 makes no sense in that case, it was all about how many times you fit that 8k within a 60 second interval. How can your cannon deal more damage ? I'm really curious, because with the same gear, a Lightning Cannon @ 20, which is the highest damaging cannon for BM2, hits for ~25% less damage than a Space Collapse @ 12, let alone a lvl 20 one.

Deathlymonkey
09-24-2010, 06:25 AM
Should I draw the conclusion that you never go to TG ? :)
You only got stun combo bar and BM2 bar ?

Don't know about you, but my bars are :

F1 : PVE stunlock
F2 : PVP / BM1 dps combo (no stuns on this one)
F3 : BM2 bar (no lances on it)
F4 : Buffs

Don't tell me you use the stunlock PVE combo in TG :) How many warriors can you kill with Electric Field, after all :)))))

You said your bm1 bar AND your pvp bar. In my world that makes 2 bars.

And btw, you shouldnt use your bm1 in war. Use aura all the time, except if it's cooling down and you really need the extra def/m.atk or to extend aura.

Spur
09-24-2010, 06:26 AM
I was talking about how many times you can cast the GM in a 60s time-frame for example, not a combination of other skills. The 8+4 vs 5+5 makes no sense in that case, it was all about how many times you fit that 8k within a 60 second interval. How can your cannon deal more damage ? I'm really curious, because with the same gear, a Lightning Cannon @ 20, which is the highest damaging cannon for BM2, hits for ~25% less damage than a Space Collapse @ 12, let alone a lvl 20 one.

well maybe ure atk is low then. a lvl 12 edc/comp only has 75%amp while lvl 20 lightning/stone has 95%amp. the diff is very low but once i cast a 95%amp edc/sc all the dmg is made up for

RatzaTM
09-24-2010, 06:33 AM
You said your bm1 bar AND your pvp bar. In my world that makes 2 bars.

And btw, you shouldnt use your bm1 in war. Use aura all the time, except if it's cooling down and you really need the extra def/m.atk or to extend aura.

I'm abusing BM1 / BM2 / Aura all the time, because I'm busy taking out towers. I can't do that in simple Aura, I need some magic boost to go with the Legacy and amp pots. Using aura won't suffice for what I'm doing.


well maybe ure atk is low then. a lvl 12 edc/comp only has 75%amp while lvl 20 lightning/stone has 95%amp. the diff is very low but once i cast a 95%amp edc/sc all the dmg is made up for

My math was done for 1300 magic, the BM2+Aura case, for 950 magic, for 1100 magic (Aura only), etc ... No matter how I do the math, the Comp / GM @ 12 always comes out with at least 15% more damage than LC @ 20.

Can you please share your stats, I'm really curious to do the math on your char and see for myself that a lvl 20 LC is better than EDC 12. Are you amp built or what ?

Spur
09-24-2010, 06:56 AM
this is bm2+aura stats without pots
matk 1403
amp 63
rate 54
dmg 175
add dmg 30

iSeeYou123
09-24-2010, 11:29 AM
RatzaTM, you must be new here

i guess you don't know how to play your wiz right =)

Rockstar
09-24-2010, 11:43 AM
this is bm2+aura stats without pots
matk 1403
amp 63
rate 54
dmg 175
add dmg 30

sigmetal weapon ftw man, who needs anything else? vouchers + wonderbox > all

Spur
09-24-2010, 03:35 PM
sigmetal weapon ftw man, who needs anything else? vouchers + wonderbox > all

actually the sig is weaker than the forcy amp

WIpwns
09-24-2010, 04:43 PM
actually the sig is weaker than the forcy amp

and thats why u wear the sig instead of ur forc amp?

derp derp

Spur
09-24-2010, 05:04 PM
and thats why u wear the sig instead of ur forc amp?

derp derp

kinda obvious i failed my forcy orb to +12 and its not usable till i get it back up

Wanderer
09-24-2010, 05:19 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T6wA8lsvtI&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T6wA8lsvtI&feature=player_embedded

Matrimoney
09-24-2010, 05:21 PM
here we go spur defending his retarded lvl 20 tran/comp/gm skills...

Spur
09-24-2010, 08:06 PM
here we go spur defending his retarded lvl 20 tran/comp/gm skills...

my retarded lvl 20s outdps u prove me wrong

Matrimoney
09-24-2010, 08:07 PM
my retarded lvl 20s outdps u prove me wrong

brb





























































































































lol'ing

Spur
09-24-2010, 08:10 PM
lol u are on all the time, nice timely responces

Matrimoney
09-24-2010, 08:12 PM
lol u are on all the time, nice timely responces

I just logged off CABAL and am checking the forums before I bounce. I've gotta tell you, I liked seeing Spur logic, but now theres gonna be Spur language. Wat's ure responce to this?

Lelouch
09-24-2010, 08:56 PM
I just logged off CABAL and I*am checking the forums before I bounce. I've got to* tell you, I liked seeing Spur logic, but now there is* gonna be Spur language. Wat's What is your* ure responce to this?

Fixed sped.

Rage
09-25-2010, 08:12 AM
Fixed sped.

forgot response got.

Spur
09-25-2010, 11:02 AM
forgot response got.

took u 12 hours to correct the spelling of a word?

Deathlymonkey
09-25-2010, 11:58 AM
took u 12 hours to correct the spelling of a word?

Hey, dont be to mean with him...Venus is limited.

Chris7
09-25-2010, 12:53 PM
lol did I miss spur getting sht on by EU?

brb buying a 30 day sig gs

Rage
09-25-2010, 04:01 PM
took u 12 hours to correct the spelling of a word?

is this supposed to be an insult?

Spur
09-25-2010, 05:12 PM
is this supposed to be an insult?

no but if u like to take it as one go ahead

Rage
09-26-2010, 07:34 AM
no but if u like to take it as one go ahead

so it was a compliment. thanks babe.

RatzaTM
09-26-2010, 10:30 PM
this is bm2+aura stats without pots
matk 1403
amp 63
rate 54
dmg 175
add dmg 30

Ok, so with your stats :

EDC @ 12 -> hits a crit of 8900 and average hit of 6350 on a 700 def mob.
EDC @ 20 -> hits a crit of 9850 and average hit of 6970
LC @ 20 -> hits a crit 8500 and average hit of 6000

Even with your stats, it's proven that EDC is better than LC, even at 12, let alone at 20. :\
I'm assuming the 63 amp incorporates the 25 from buff, so that would be 38 amp outside short ? Or do you have some amped orb /14 amp parts on you ?

To the other trollers in this thread : mind your own business ladies, I've been playing Cabal on my WI since you hadn't even heard of Cabal. ( I SEE YOU !!! :) )

WIpwns
09-27-2010, 04:02 AM
Ok, so with your stats :

EDC @ 12 -> hits a crit of 8900 and average hit of 6350 on a 700 def mob.
EDC @ 20 -> hits a crit of 9850 and average hit of 6970
LC @ 20 -> hits a crit 8500 and average hit of 6000

Even with your stats, it's proven that EDC is better than LC, even at 12, let alone at 20. :\
I'm assuming the 63 amp incorporates the 25 from buff, so that would be 38 amp outside short ? Or do you have some amped orb /14 amp parts on you ?

To the other trollers in this thread : mind your own business ladies, I've been playing Cabal on my WI since you hadn't even heard of Cabal. ( I SEE YOU !!! :) )
he wears a 30 day 14% m amp sig orb lolololololol

Rage
09-27-2010, 06:20 AM
he wears a 30 day 14% m amp sig orb lolololololol

i think thats worse than temporary +8 capes.

Spur
09-27-2010, 07:20 AM
Ok, so with your stats :

EDC @ 12 -> hits a crit of 8900 and average hit of 6350 on a 700 def mob.
EDC @ 20 -> hits a crit of 9850 and average hit of 6970
LC @ 20 -> hits a crit 8500 and average hit of 6000

Even with your stats, it's proven that EDC is better than LC, even at 12, let alone at 20. :\
I'm assuming the 63 amp incorporates the 25 from buff, so that would be 38 amp outside short ? Or do you have some amped orb /14 amp parts on you ?

To the other trollers in this thread : mind your own business ladies, I've been playing Cabal on my WI since you hadn't even heard of Cabal. ( I SEE YOU !!! :) )

ok the main flaw u will see here is... y would any WI go bm2+aura on a mob with 700def? rota might be the minimum for us to be in both bm2 and aura so def should be 1700 instead. im the one arguing for lvl 20 skills here y would ure edc be at 20?

im saying lvl 20 edc/sc/meteor + lvl 20 cannons > lvl 12 edc/sc/meteor + lvl 20 cannons

and for rage do some math b4 u talk a +11 forcy amp orb > +9 sig 14% amp orb so dun think it improved my power one bit

Matrimoney
09-27-2010, 07:29 AM
ok the main flaw u will see here is... y would any WI go bm2+aura on a mob with 700def? rota might be the minimum for us to be in both bm2 and aura so def should be 1700 instead. im the one arguing for lvl 20 skills here y would ure edc be at 20?

im saying lvl 20 edc/sc/meteor + lvl 20 cannons > lvl 12 edc/sc/meteor + lvl 20 cannons

and for rage do some math b4 u talk a +11 forcy amp orb > +9 sig 14% amp orb so dun think it improved my power one bit

I'm not going to calculate anything because I'm not a I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥ and don't have tables glued to my wall, but I'm pretty sure gaining 7% amp while losing 4x mag atk when you have 14xx mag atk in BM2/Aura probably puts out the same amount of DMG because of the higher base.

Rage
09-27-2010, 04:32 PM
I'm not going to calculate anything because I'm not a I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥ and don't have tables glued to my wall, but I'm pretty sure gaining 7% amp while losing 4x mag atk when you have 14xx mag atk in BM2/Aura probably puts out the same amount of DMG because of the higher base.

lol there thumbtacked k?

RatzaTM
09-27-2010, 11:16 PM
ok the main flaw u will see here is... y would any WI go bm2+aura on a mob with 700def? rota might be the minimum for us to be in both bm2 and aura so def should be 1700 instead. im the one arguing for lvl 20 skills here y would ure edc be at 20?

im saying lvl 20 edc/sc/meteor + lvl 20 cannons > lvl 12 edc/sc/meteor + lvl 20 cannons

and for rage do some math b4 u talk a +11 forcy amp orb > +9 sig 14% amp orb so dun think it improved my power one bit

Let me refresh your memory : You said -> "lol lvl 12 comp and gm? then my cannons deal more then them"
I am just showing you that no matter what def the mob has, even with my or your stats, the lvl 12 will always deal more damage than cannons, and it will be cast more often within the same timeframe, due to lower cooldown, while at the same time be usable in the stunlock combo, thus making it a good choice for skill level.

With your stats and 1700 def (Rota):

EDC @ 12 : 6250
EDC @ 20 (for comparison purposes only) : 7124
LC @ 20 : 5805

Result : LC @ 20 doesn't outdamage EDC @ 12 (not mine, and not even yours, as you claimed above)

Let's say you go double BM, that's 88 seconds of usable BM (85 + some 3 more seconds until the Bm actually wears out).
EDC @ 20 has a cooldown of 12.8s and crits for 7124
EDC @ 12 has a cooldown of 6s and crits for 6250
EDC @ 9 has a cooldown of 4.6s and crits for 6038

In a regular 90 seconds double BM, you can cast :

1) EDC @ 20 -> 7 times -> total damage from EDC only is then 49.868
2) EDC @ 12 -> 15 times -> total damage from EDC only is then 93.750
3) EDC @ 9 -> 19 times -> total damage from EDC only is then 114.722

As you can see, the best thing would be to have EDC @ level 9 if you consider damage output in BM2 only. Mine is on 12 because the damage loss in a BM duration is only 21k, but it grants me the ability to use a 1click combo lock. Your level 20 EDC makes you deal 50k damage instead of 114k damage within the same BM duration. That's 50% efficiency.

I used as example, what I think is some godly gear for a WI at the moment (right click -> view image, for an easier time to read) :

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1379/40221188.png

Stats are enormous as you can see, so let's assume you had this gear (3 x 14 amp parts, 2 x 7/40 topaz +12, all runes, fury shout, mana condense, pots, etc, the whole deal). How much damage would your EDC deal ?

1) EDC @ 20 -> 7 x 19.704 -> total damage of 137.928
2) EDC @ 12 -> 15 x 18.448 -> total damage of 276.720
3) EDC @ 9 -> 19 x 18.112 -> total damage of 344.128

As a conclusion to what I posted above :

1) LC @ 20 will NEVER NEVER EVER surpass EDC @ 12 in damage. Even EDC @ 9 hits harder than LC @ 20. Never say that again please, without doublechecking first.
2) EDC @ 20 is nothing but damage loss if you use it for BM2 only. If you use it for PVP and such, as finisher instead of SC, then maybe it has some use, but for BM, as we started discussing this topic, the best use would be to have EDC @ 9 and spam the **** out of it during those 90 seconds (regardless of gear, this is true)
3) With the risk of sounding arrogant or having no manners, if the self-proclaimed best wizard on NA cannot accept the above figures (which are pure math, they can't be altered) then I am sorry but this will be a monologue instead of a dialogue, as our discussion will end here.

I rest my case, I hope I made my point and that you won't hold a grudge against me for proving via mathematics (which is an exact science) that you are wrong in your claims.
I didn't come here to argue with anyone, nor to prove that I am better (if the case) than you guys, nor to insult anyone's wits. I simply cannot withstand wrong information being given to players. People look up to you Spur, they see you as a very good wizard, and you teach them what in return ? How to deal 50% of their regular BM damage ? Using the BM2 calculator, everyone can create their perfect BM2, but they have to remember that the damage and cooltime have to be taken into consideration, not only damage.

FU2
09-28-2010, 12:12 AM
Ahhahahahah spur get pwned in math more? Pwnage thx Ratza :).

RatzaTM
09-28-2010, 12:15 AM
Ahhahahahah spur get pwned in math more? Pwnage thx Ratza :).

Please, I didn't come here to pawn anyone, I am just trying to show the differences between levels of skills and why X is a better choice than Y, with valid examples.
Don't thank me, I'm not doing this because I dislike Spur, on the contrary, but I just dislike people blindly/mindlessly following certain players without thinking first, and I've seen many folks mimicking Spur's bars for example, without knowing the PROs and CONs of his bar. I'm merely inciting them to think before copying, to think whether what they are doing is wrong or right.

Rage
09-28-2010, 07:12 AM
ok the main flaw u will see here is... y would any WI go bm2+aura on a mob with 700def? rota might be the minimum for us to be in both bm2 and aura so def should be 1700 instead. im the one arguing for lvl 20 skills here y would ure edc be at 20?

im saying lvl 20 edc/sc/meteor + lvl 20 cannons > lvl 12 edc/sc/meteor + lvl 20 cannons

and for rage do some math b4 u talk a +11 forcy amp orb > +9 sig 14% amp orb so dun think it improved my power one bit

good job doing math urself sir. ratz shi/t on your face 50% wiz.

Matrimoney
09-28-2010, 07:17 AM
Let me refresh your memory : You said -> "lol lvl 12 comp and gm? then my cannons deal more then them"
I am just showing you that no matter what def the mob has, even with my or your stats, the lvl 12 will always deal more damage than cannons, and it will be cast more often within the same timeframe, due to lower cooldown, while at the same time be usable in the stunlock combo, thus making it a good choice for skill level.

With your stats and 1700 def (Rota):

EDC @ 12 : 6250
EDC @ 20 (for comparison purposes only) : 7124
LC @ 20 : 5805

Result : LC @ 20 doesn't outdamage EDC @ 12 (not mine, and not even yours, as you claimed above)

Let's say you go double BM, that's 88 seconds of usable BM (85 + some 3 more seconds until the Bm actually wears out).
EDC @ 20 has a cooldown of 12.8s and crits for 7124
EDC @ 12 has a cooldown of 6s and crits for 6250
EDC @ 9 has a cooldown of 4.6s and crits for 6038

In a regular 90 seconds double BM, you can cast :

1) EDC @ 20 -> 7 times -> total damage from EDC only is then 49.868
2) EDC @ 12 -> 15 times -> total damage from EDC only is then 93.750
3) EDC @ 9 -> 19 times -> total damage from EDC only is then 114.722

As you can see, the best thing would be to have EDC @ level 9 if you consider damage output in BM2 only. Mine is on 12 because the damage loss in a BM duration is only 21k, but it grants me the ability to use a 1click combo lock. Your level 20 EDC makes you deal 50k damage instead of 114k damage within the same BM duration. That's 50% efficiency.

I used as example, what I think is some godly gear for a WI at the moment (right click -> view image, for an easier time to read) :

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1379/40221188.png

Stats are enormous as you can see, so let's assume you had this gear (3 x 14 amp parts, 2 x 7/40 topaz +12, all runes, fury shout, mana condense, pots, etc, the whole deal). How much damage would your EDC deal ?

1) EDC @ 20 -> 7 x 19.704 -> total damage of 137.928
2) EDC @ 12 -> 15 x 18.448 -> total damage of 276.720
3) EDC @ 9 -> 19 x 18.112 -> total damage of 344.128

As a conclusion to what I posted above :

1) LC @ 20 will NEVER NEVER EVER surpass EDC @ 12 in damage. Even EDC @ 9 hits harder than LC @ 20. Never say that again please, without doublechecking first.
2) EDC @ 20 is nothing but damage loss if you use it for BM2 only. If you use it for PVP and such, as finisher instead of SC, then maybe it has some use, but for BM, as we started discussing this topic, the best use would be to have EDC @ 9 and spam the **** out of it during those 90 seconds (regardless of gear, this is true)
3) With the risk of sounding arrogant or having no manners, if the self-proclaimed best wizard on NA cannot accept the above figures (which are pure math, they can't be altered) then I am sorry but this will be a monologue instead of a dialogue, as our discussion will end here.

I rest my case, I hope I made my point and that you won't hold a grudge against me for proving via mathematics (which is an exact science) that you are wrong in your claims.
I didn't come here to argue with anyone, nor to prove that I am better (if the case) than you guys, nor to insult anyone's wits. I simply cannot withstand wrong information being given to players. People look up to you Spur, they see you as a very good wizard, and you teach them what in return ? How to deal 50% of their regular BM damage ? Using the BM2 calculator, everyone can create their perfect BM2, but they have to remember that the damage and cooltime have to be taken into consideration, not only damage.

you just took a huge dumperoo on spur...someone get lethal to help spur clean it all off his face, hes the expert on the forums when it comes to gett shat on

MamaMiaYoe
09-28-2010, 09:44 AM
ok the main flaw u will see here is... y would any WI go bm2+aura on a mob with 700def? rota might be the minimum for us to be in both bm2 and aura so def should be 1700 instead. im the one arguing for lvl 20 skills here y would ure edc be at 20?

im saying lvl 20 edc/sc/meteor + lvl 20 cannons > lvl 12 edc/sc/meteor + lvl 20 cannons

and for rage do some math b4 u talk a +11 forcy amp orb > +9 sig 14% amp orb so dun think it improved my power one bit

Damage wise I believe thats true (I highlighted it). But I think these people are counting the amount of times you can cast the finishers/high damage skills (in a bm2 span) at lvl 12 and summing up the total/equivalent amount of their damage which I think proves to be correct to deal more damage when were talking about pve/boss hunt - TIME. What if maybe its just because you got items (that permanent +8 cape particularly) that boosts your stats higher compared to a typical wiz with just average gears?

On the other hand, you work more in the nation war, pvp aspect of the game thats why it (the skill setting) applies to you. In the pvp way of thinking we prefer finisher skills to be what they are called - finishers. so we only use it one time, that is if we are convinced that this finisher's damage is enough to kill the target/finish his hp... thus maxing them to lvl 20 so the crit (if ever) would finish the job. I have mine maxed too so I guess im at your side.
But I think no one is mistaken, since weve seen videos of spur solo pluma with his methods. Both works given the right gears.

FU2
09-28-2010, 09:56 AM
Damage wise I believe thats true (I highlighted it). But I think these people are counting the amount of times you can cast the finishers/high damage skills (in a bm2 span) at lvl 12 and summing up the total/equivalent amount of their damage which I think proves to be correct to deal more damage when were talking about pve/boss hunt - TIME. What if maybe its just because you got items (that permanent +8 cape particularly) that boosts your stats higher compared to a typical wiz with just average gears?

On the other hand, you work more in the nation war, pvp aspect of the game thats why it (the skill setting) applies to you. In the pvp way of thinking we prefer finisher skills to be what they are called - finishers. so we only use it one time, that is if we are convinced that this finisher's damage is enough to kill the target/finish his hp... thus maxing them to lvl 20 so the crit (if ever) would finish the job. I have mine maxed too so I guess im at your side.
But I think no one is mistaken, since weve seen videos of spur solo pluma with his methods. Both works given the right gears.

Take some english classes.

Rockstar
09-28-2010, 09:56 AM
I thought everyone knew spur logic was outliving your opponent, not outdpsing them (including bosses.)

Chris7
09-28-2010, 10:04 AM
Let me refresh your memory : You said -> "lol lvl 12 comp and gm? then my cannons deal more then them"
I am just showing you that no matter what def the mob has, even with my or your stats, the lvl 12 will always deal more damage than cannons, and it will be cast more often within the same timeframe, due to lower cooldown, while at the same time be usable in the stunlock combo, thus making it a good choice for skill level.

With your stats and 1700 def (Rota):

EDC @ 12 : 6250
EDC @ 20 (for comparison purposes only) : 7124
LC @ 20 : 5805

Result : LC @ 20 doesn't outdamage EDC @ 12 (not mine, and not even yours, as you claimed above)

Let's say you go double BM, that's 88 seconds of usable BM (85 + some 3 more seconds until the Bm actually wears out).
EDC @ 20 has a cooldown of 12.8s and crits for 7124
EDC @ 12 has a cooldown of 6s and crits for 6250
EDC @ 9 has a cooldown of 4.6s and crits for 6038

In a regular 90 seconds double BM, you can cast :

1) EDC @ 20 -> 7 times -> total damage from EDC only is then 49.868
2) EDC @ 12 -> 15 times -> total damage from EDC only is then 93.750
3) EDC @ 9 -> 19 times -> total damage from EDC only is then 114.722

As you can see, the best thing would be to have EDC @ level 9 if you consider damage output in BM2 only. Mine is on 12 because the damage loss in a BM duration is only 21k, but it grants me the ability to use a 1click combo lock. Your level 20 EDC makes you deal 50k damage instead of 114k damage within the same BM duration. That's 50% efficiency.

I used as example, what I think is some godly gear for a WI at the moment (right click -> view image, for an easier time to read) :

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1379/40221188.png

Stats are enormous as you can see, so let's assume you had this gear (3 x 14 amp parts, 2 x 7/40 topaz +12, all runes, fury shout, mana condense, pots, etc, the whole deal). How much damage would your EDC deal ?

1) EDC @ 20 -> 7 x 19.704 -> total damage of 137.928
2) EDC @ 12 -> 15 x 18.448 -> total damage of 276.720
3) EDC @ 9 -> 19 x 18.112 -> total damage of 344.128

As a conclusion to what I posted above :

1) LC @ 20 will NEVER NEVER EVER surpass EDC @ 12 in damage. Even EDC @ 9 hits harder than LC @ 20. Never say that again please, without doublechecking first.
2) EDC @ 20 is nothing but damage loss if you use it for BM2 only. If you use it for PVP and such, as finisher instead of SC, then maybe it has some use, but for BM, as we started discussing this topic, the best use would be to have EDC @ 9 and spam the **** out of it during those 90 seconds (regardless of gear, this is true)
3) With the risk of sounding arrogant or having no manners, if the self-proclaimed best wizard on NA cannot accept the above figures (which are pure math, they can't be altered) then I am sorry but this will be a monologue instead of a dialogue, as our discussion will end here.

I rest my case, I hope I made my point and that you won't hold a grudge against me for proving via mathematics (which is an exact science) that you are wrong in your claims.
I didn't come here to argue with anyone, nor to prove that I am better (if the case) than you guys, nor to insult anyone's wits. I simply cannot withstand wrong information being given to players. People look up to you Spur, they see you as a very good wizard, and you teach them what in return ? How to deal 50% of their regular BM damage ? Using the BM2 calculator, everyone can create their perfect BM2, but they have to remember that the damage and cooltime have to be taken into consideration, not only damage.

just get this post framed, spur.

that way you can always remember how badly you got shat on when you look at URE wall.

MamaMiaYoe
09-28-2010, 10:04 AM
Take some english classes.


wohoooo thanks! WHERE IS DARKKD (Chris7)!!!!

If you're reading this........BAAAAAM! you might wanna consider thinking about that essay like posts of mine. See this guy here thinks my post is engrish!!! so there you go, thats proof right there! OH YEAH! :D

Chris7
09-28-2010, 10:09 AM
btw spur is not the best wizard on NA, Ratza.
that's a joke.

MamaMiaYoe
09-28-2010, 10:09 AM
Take some english classes.

And Mr. dumb. Yeah I'll call you dumb because your post just showed how you perceive this forum as an english conscious individual. The common misunderstanding about communication is that style is more important than substance. (I hope you are not too dumb enough as I think you are to ponder that statement.)

This is america, not some other country that are language conscious. The diversity should give you enough reason to consider the importance of how a source channels his message to his receivers effectively.


TIME TO WAKE UP AND BECOME A FULLY FUNCTIONING MEMBER OF A DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY!!!!!

Chris7
09-28-2010, 10:10 AM
wohoooo thanks! WHERE IS DARKKD (Chris7)!!!!

If you're reading this........BAAAAAM! you might wanna consider thinking about that essay like posts of mine. See this guy here thinks my post is engrish!!! so there you go, thats proof right there! OH YEAH! :D

he's mocking your english retard. rofl

MamaMiaYoe
09-28-2010, 10:11 AM
he's mocking your english retard. rofl
Pffft! Reasons! He stated it! I need to take english class!!!! =P

FU2
09-28-2010, 10:30 AM
Bimbo is a bimbo.

MamaMiaYoe
09-28-2010, 10:38 AM
Bimbo is a bimbo.
Can you write anything else that is relevant to my previous response? o.o

RekeesEnivid
09-28-2010, 02:02 PM
I thought everyone knew spur logic was outliving your opponent, not outdpsing them (including bosses.)

but it is :D henceforth Tyrant < Spur cause tyrant cant match spur's HP


just get this post framed, spur. that way you can always remember how badly you got shat on when you look at YOU ARE wall.

hurr durr


Let me refresh your memory : You said -> "lol lvl 12 comp and gm? then my cannons deal more then them"
I am just showing you that no matter what def the mob has, even with my or your stats, the lvl 12 will always deal more damage than cannons, and it will be cast more often within the same timeframe, due to lower cooldown, while at the same time be usable in the stunlock combo, thus making it a good choice for skill level.

With your stats and 1700 def (Rota):

EDC @ 12 : 6250
EDC @ 20 (for comparison purposes only) : 7124
LC @ 20 : 5805

Result : LC @ 20 doesn't outdamage EDC @ 12 (not mine, and not even yours, as you claimed above)

Let's say you go double BM, that's 88 seconds of usable BM (85 + some 3 more seconds until the Bm actually wears out).
EDC @ 20 has a cooldown of 12.8s and crits for 7124
EDC @ 12 has a cooldown of 6s and crits for 6250
EDC @ 9 has a cooldown of 4.6s and crits for 6038

In a regular 90 seconds double BM, you can cast :

1) EDC @ 20 -> 7 times -> total damage from EDC only is then 49.868
2) EDC @ 12 -> 15 times -> total damage from EDC only is then 93.750
3) EDC @ 9 -> 19 times -> total damage from EDC only is then 114.722

As you can see, the best thing would be to have EDC @ level 9 if you consider damage output in BM2 only. Mine is on 12 because the damage loss in a BM duration is only 21k, but it grants me the ability to use a 1click combo lock. Your level 20 EDC makes you deal 50k damage instead of 114k damage within the same BM duration. That's 50% efficiency.

I used as example, what I think is some godly gear for a WI at the moment (right click -> view image, for an easier time to read) :

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1379/40221188.png

Stats are enormous as you can see, so let's assume you had this gear (3 x 14 amp parts, 2 x 7/40 topaz +12, all runes, fury shout, mana condense, pots, etc, the whole deal). How much damage would your EDC deal ?

1) EDC @ 20 -> 7 x 19.704 -> total damage of 137.928
2) EDC @ 12 -> 15 x 18.448 -> total damage of 276.720
3) EDC @ 9 -> 19 x 18.112 -> total damage of 344.128

As a conclusion to what I posted above :

1) LC @ 20 will NEVER NEVER EVER surpass EDC @ 12 in damage. Even EDC @ 9 hits harder than LC @ 20. Never say that again please, without doublechecking first.
2) EDC @ 20 is nothing but damage loss if you use it for BM2 only. If you use it for PVP and such, as finisher instead of SC, then maybe it has some use, but for BM, as we started discussing this topic, the best use would be to have EDC @ 9 and spam the **** out of it during those 90 seconds (regardless of gear, this is true)
3) With the risk of sounding arrogant or having no manners, if the self-proclaimed best wizard on NA cannot accept the above figures (which are pure math, they can't be altered) then I am sorry but this will be a monologue instead of a dialogue, as our discussion will end here.

I rest my case, I hope I made my point and that you won't hold a grudge against me for proving via mathematics (which is an exact science) that you are wrong in your claims.
I didn't come here to argue with anyone, nor to prove that I am better (if the case) than you guys, nor to insult anyone's wits. I simply cannot withstand wrong information being given to players. People look up to you Spur, they see you as a very good wizard, and you teach them what in return ? How to deal 50% of their regular BM damage ? Using the BM2 calculator, everyone can create their perfect BM2, but they have to remember that the damage and cooltime have to be taken into consideration, not only damage.

Teach these younglings Yoda

RekeesEnivid
09-28-2010, 02:04 PM
Can you write anything else that is relevant to my previous response? o.o

your teeth are yellow and you s.uck at English =/.

I'm black btw so don't bother responding I'm impervious to flame

MamaMiaYoe
09-28-2010, 02:14 PM
your teeth are yellow and you s.uck at English =/.

I'm black btw so don't bother responding I'm impervious to flame
No one knows you. If youre seeking for divine intervention =/ this is not the right forum. :)
I dont care if youre black. There is nothing we can do about that. xDDD

MamaMiaYoe
09-28-2010, 02:18 PM
Oh let me add this double post for my post count.

And I am Miavii, a.k.a the forum's drama queen.

Rage
09-28-2010, 03:06 PM
for you spur
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/6210/spur.jpg (http://img714.imageshack.us/i/spur.jpg/)

Deathlymonkey
09-28-2010, 03:53 PM
for you spur
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/6210/spur.jpg (http://img714.imageshack.us/i/spur.jpg/)

You guys should get a life. =)
You all keep laughing at spur because he got owned once....Us Merc players didn't laugh at matrimonkey everytime he got owned on forums, and God knows he got owned many times. That proves Merc > Venus not just in terms of skills, but also in terms of maturity. Flame my post if you wish to, it will only prove my point.

Matrimoney
09-28-2010, 04:21 PM
You guys should get a life. =)
You all keep laughing at spur because he got owned once....Us Merc players didn't laugh at matrimonkey everytime he got owned on forums, and God knows he got owned many times. That proves Merc > Venus not just in terms of skills, but also in terms of maturity. Flame my post if you wish to, it will only prove my point.

Sorry, but how many times have I shat on you tardmuffins (especially lethal) with screenshots, not to mention videos?
"qq your bl stats are fake!!" Oh, heres a SS of them.
"qq wheres ur pluma solo noob" Oh, here it is.
"qq wheres ur ca5 solo noob" Oh, here it is.

Ring any bells?

Also, where do you think you come into this flame war? You're some lowbie trash 15x Wiz that only wishes he could get up to my level.

lolwut
09-28-2010, 04:42 PM
Matrimoney #1 wiz!!!!!!

WIpwns
09-28-2010, 06:11 PM
Oh let me add this double post for my post count.

And I am Miavii, a.k.a the forum's drama queen.

trauma queen gtf o

LastHour
09-28-2010, 06:47 PM
The nicely done math tests weren't entirely necessary to prove 12 edc > 20 LC. Spur is right that EDC had 20% less amp than his lightning cannon, but he forgot something called add attack on the skill which EDC is far superior with. You can tell by something called "Power", which is the # in the ( ) when you select a skill to attack with. EDC has higher power than LC, and power determines damage. Power - defense = damage. Against the same defense, the skill with higher power will always hit harder regardless of w/e you want to say about amp or add attack advantages, the combination of both is what determines power and ignoring one makes you ignorant as spur did in this case.

DPS is another story as ratza nicely proved so I'll let his tests attest to that.

You can say spur is technically right that the amp base boost will outdo EDC's add attack, but the m. atk required to pull that off is 2237+ m. atk. [2237 * .2 [amp difference against 12 edc] = 447.4 power boost, which is the difference in add attack on the skills]. Needless to say ratza is correct when he says that will never be outdone, well maybe if +9000 forcium weapons are on the horizon.

Also, general note about level 20 skills to me is just plain why? The difference between lvl 18 and 20 alone on most skills is gigantic differences in cool down on top of wasting 20 skill points. The attack gains are minimal, and I have almost never found justification for level 20 skills over 18. The wasted skill points, minimal gain, and huge cool downs should be sense enough to go level 18 max if you like to be a hard hitter. One of the worst is blade scud, which gains nearly eight seconds in cool from level 18 to 20. Quite simply the loss outdoes the gain, so why use it? The only case I can think of is if 1-2-3-4-5 combo PvP is the only thing you do in this game. Personally I prefer 12 edc/sc, although I've been considering 15 sc/edc with the addition of meteorite.

RekeesEnivid
09-28-2010, 06:52 PM
this merc vs venus thing is the only topic fueling these forums so deal with it merc peeps... until est decides to develop server wars. Matri will continue owning merc for venus. miavii you're a suxy drama queen. :(

MamaMiaYoe
09-28-2010, 07:06 PM
trauma queen gtf o

You gtf o before I 1 shot your pos nooblets.

MamaMiaYoe
09-28-2010, 07:07 PM
this merc vs venus thing is the only topic fueling these forums so deal with it venus peeps... until est decides to develop server wars. Merc will continue owning venus for merc. miavii you're a s.exy drama queen. Can I be your loyal slave? :(

fix'd

RatzaTM
09-28-2010, 11:01 PM
Ladies can we please keep things to a decent level ?
I would like to remind everyone that my presence here is not linked to the fact that I want to "pawn" any NA player, be it Spur or Matrimoney or anyone else. I've said it quite a few times by now, all I wanted was to clear up as to why other people should not go for Spur's bar in terms of performance, because Spur is Spur, if he uses those skills and it fits his playing style, then I'm happy for him, but it's far from 100% efficiency, which other people should focus on, due to lesser gear.

As they will improve their gear to Spur's level, maybe they won't care about dungeoning that much, and will use lvl 20 skills for TG / PVP only, but until then, they need to squeeze the most out of their character, and that can only be done with lower levels on skills. That's all there is to it, and all that ever was in my mind when I first replied here.
I'm not saying Spur's levels are stu.pid or anything like that, I'm just saying he should not promote his levels for skills as being an optimal choice, because they're not, unless someone has end-game gear already.

And about this "the thing u dont get is i have 12 skills in my bm2 bar for maximum dps so please tell me how to get 12 skills while having 3 lances and not using them "
The maximum DPS can be achieved with 8-9 skills, if you use them at the proper level. In order for me to answer your question about MAX DPS not MAX HIT on skills, then I would need to use LastHour's calculator for BM2 skills or the link in the first post, and find out the perfect ratio for Damage / Cooldown for each major BM2 skill (like level 9 EDC in this case), but I'm 100% sure you can do that yourself.
If you meant Max One-time Hit, then yes, you need them on 20. If you meant DPS then you are terribly wrong in keeping them at 20.

WIpwns
09-29-2010, 03:17 AM
it fits his playing style

http://i53.tinypic.com/95ygb5.jpg
look at this guys bm2 bar lol

Deathlymonkey
09-29-2010, 04:20 AM
Sorry, but how many times have I shat on you tardmuffins (especially lethal) with screenshots, not to mention videos?
"qq your bl stats are fake!!" Oh, heres a SS of them.
"qq wheres ur pluma solo noob" Oh, here it is.
"qq wheres ur ca5 solo noob" Oh, here it is.

Ring any bells?

Also, where do you think you come into this flame war? You're some lowbie trash 15x Wiz that only wishes he could get up to my level.

Oh, gratz! You shat on Lethal. We all did. Want a cookie? And btw, not only merc called you noob, tons of people from Venus said it too. I hope you're proud of having...what, 3 friends? Only DarkD, Rage and some other un-legit players from Tang are taking your side.

Call me a lowbie trash 15x wiz if you want to, but I've probably been playing this game longer than you. The difference between you and me is I didnt put any USD in this game and I don't spend all my time playing, because I have something called a life.

RekeesEnivid
09-29-2010, 05:47 AM
this thread is so tired - RatZa has spoken his peace. "Live long and Prosper"

Spur
09-29-2010, 06:10 AM
im not running out of slots, im running out of skill points. lol lvl 12 comp and gm? then my cannons deal more then them.. as i stated like last year
8k+4ks > 5k+5k

i think i need to quote myself lol. i know ure from EU and maybe u read things differently but its called figure of speech, heres my post on the 3rd page. its kinda obvious i know cannons will not outdmg a lvl 9 or 12 sc/edc/met but when paired with a lvl 20 sc/edc they will. maybe u didnt see my little scenario on the bottom of that post. 8k+4k > 5k+5k my cannons are obviously the 4ks and they are obviously lower than the lv 9/12 which are 5ks

i cant believe u went thru a whole post about this one statement without reading the rest of it. of course the other NA noobs will just say watever and side along u even if they knew wat i said cause they cant beat me otherwise

RatzaTM
09-29-2010, 06:51 AM
Ok then, please correct me where I might have misunderstood (PS : In Romania we study US English not UK English, so I doubt I misunderstood anything)

1. First, WIPwns posts that people should remove their lances from the bar (to be read : bm2 bar) - You then tell him that lances have the highest DPS in combo (totally unrelated) and that not everyone learns their skills according to the BM bar (not like WIpwns ever suggested to folks that they should unlearn their lances, he simply stated they should not be used in BM2, that's all). Mistake on your side.

2. Then he says that the thread is about BM2, which is obvious due to the title, and you contradict him saying that this thread is about Wizzies, just because you directed the conversation in a wrong way and you feel like continuing to talk about the DPS skills of the wizard. Mistake on your side number 2, as the thread was started with the subject BM2, not "Let's talk about wizards because I'm Spur and I say so". If you want to talk about lances and DPS please make your own thread, next time.

3. You then say that the only reason he posted the chart is because he mocks you (although he never mentioned your name specifically, mistake number 3 for feeling targeted) due to your lvl 20 skills. You stated that you have 12 skills for MAXIMUM DPS, not maximum DPS while having all skills at level 20 because Spur likes to play that way, so everyone (myself included) assumed you are talking about how to obtain maximum DPS for a wizard, no matter the skill levels, not how to obtain maximum DPS while using all skills at 20.

4. You said you are running out of skillpoints not slots, so I showed you how you can improve your MAXIMUM DPS (as you expressed yourself in the post) with less skill points, that's why I based my calculation over the duration of a whole BM and not a single pair of hits. (for me maximum DPS reffers to maximum damage achievable per second, not per 1 cast, so I immediately thought of 90 seconds, which is what 99% of any readers would have thought about as well)

5. I then asked you how can your cannon deal more damage than EDC, and your reply was : maybe your magic is too low (again, misunderstanding, because I was thinking about the total damage output, the end-result of the formula, not just multiplying magic with AMP, as LastHour said, there's also the +add dmg from skill, which I believe you didn't take into consideration when saying, but I didn't know you ignored it from your calculation). So I showed you that the end-result damage formula, not the partial damage formula, inclines the balance towards EDC, no matter the def or magic of the char.


In closing : The subject of the thread was BM2, not a single pair of hits in BM2, am I right ? Thread starter told everyone to remove their lances from the BM2 bar, because they deal low damage, which is 100% accurate. Then the discussion degenerated due to the misuse of maximum DPS in one of your posts, so I focused my attention on detailing the actual maximum DPS of the BM2.
Indeed, 8 + 4 > 5 + 5, but that applies to this particular comparison only, not the maximum DPS that you mentioned, which in my eyes is calculated over the whole 90 second duration of the BM, and where your comparison becomes null, as the maximum DPS of 90 seconds consists of more pairs of 5+5 that are spammed, when compared to less 8+4 pairs. In the end, 5+5 multiple times will outdamage 8+4 which are cast less times, that's all I wanted to say.

In other words : YOU went offtopic and deviated the subject towards lances use in a wizard's skilltree (not bm2 bar as thread subject), then YOU didn't take into consideration the whole formula of damage output when comparing cannons to EDC, and stated that LC > EDC (which is true, for an incredible amount of magic and without taking into consideration the +add dmg from the 2 skills, but it is false for every wizard out there, including your own), then YOU talked about how to improve the MAXIMUM DPS of your BM2 (again, such generic usage of words would imply a regular WI BM2, not Spur's "I only use lvl 20 skills so show me a better way to improve DPS with lvl 20 skills only"), so I showed you that lowering your skill levels would provide the optimization you were looking for (sorry for not asking you whether you would consider lowering the skill levels an option).

After all this, you are saying it's MY fault for not being able to comprehend proper English just because I'm European ? Excuse me, but who did more mistakes in expressing ideas in this thread ? Who's the one that diverts from subject to subject making mistake after mistake in his statements because he refuses to understand the subject of the thread and posts results of partial formulas for damage and misuses the syntax DPS when in fact it should be DPH (damage per hit or pair of hits) ?
Please, I had no intention of being aggressive, but the way you try to clean your hands of your faulty statements simply makes me sick and forces me to retaliate, seeing as you try to put this on my back, making me the one to blame for not reading posts and replying randomly, when in fact you give false statement replies based on incomplete/faulty mathematics and use of English language.

FU2
09-29-2010, 09:32 AM
Ok then, please correct me where I might have misunderstood (PS : In Romania we study US English not UK English, so I doubt I misunderstood anything)

1. First, WIPwns posts that people should remove their lances from the bar (to be read : bm2 bar) - You then tell him that lances have the highest DPS in combo (totally unrelated) and that not everyone learns their skills according to the BM bar (not like WIpwns ever suggested to folks that they should unlearn their lances, he simply stated they should not be used in BM2, that's all). Mistake on your side.

2. Then he says that the thread is about BM2, which is obvious due to the title, and you contradict him saying that this thread is about Wizzies, just because you directed the conversation in a wrong way and you feel like continuing to talk about the DPS skills of the wizard. Mistake on your side number 2, as the thread was started with the subject BM2, not "Let's talk about wizards because I'm Spur and I say so". If you want to talk about lances and DPS please make your own thread, next time.

3. You then say that the only reason he posted the chart is because he mocks you (although he never mentioned your name specifically, mistake number 3 for feeling targeted) due to your lvl 20 skills. You stated that you have 12 skills for MAXIMUM DPS, not maximum DPS while having all skills at level 20 because Spur likes to play that way, so everyone (myself included) assumed you are talking about how to obtain maximum DPS for a wizard, no matter the skill levels, not how to obtain maximum DPS while using all skills at 20.

4. You said you are running out of skillpoints not slots, so I showed you how you can improve your MAXIMUM DPS (as you expressed yourself in the post) with less skill points, that's why I based my calculation over the duration of a whole BM and not a single pair of hits. (for me maximum DPS reffers to maximum damage achievable per second, not per 1 cast, so I immediately thought of 90 seconds, which is what 99% of any readers would have thought about as well)

5. I then asked you how can your cannon deal more damage than EDC, and your reply was : maybe your magic is too low (again, misunderstanding, because I was thinking about the total damage output, the end-result of the formula, not just multiplying magic with AMP, as LastHour said, there's also the +add dmg from skill, which I believe you didn't take into consideration when saying, but I didn't know you ignored it from your calculation). So I showed you that the end-result damage formula, not the partial damage formula, inclines the balance towards EDC, no matter the def or magic of the char.


In closing : The subject of the thread was BM2, not a single pair of hits in BM2, am I right ? Thread starter told everyone to remove their lances from the BM2 bar, because they deal low damage, which is 100% accurate. Then the discussion degenerated due to the misuse of maximum DPS in one of your posts, so I focused my attention on detailing the actual maximum DPS of the BM2.
Indeed, 8 + 4 > 5 + 5, but that applies to this particular comparison only, not the maximum DPS that you mentioned, which in my eyes is calculated over the whole 90 second duration of the BM, and where your comparison becomes null, as the maximum DPS of 90 seconds consists of more pairs of 5+5 that are spammed, when compared to less 8+4 pairs. In the end, 5+5 multiple times will outdamage 8+4 which are cast less times, that's all I wanted to say.

In other words : YOU went offtopic and deviated the subject towards lances use in a wizard's skilltree (not bm2 bar as thread subject), then YOU didn't take into consideration the whole formula of damage output when comparing cannons to EDC, and stated that LC > EDC (which is true, for an incredible amount of magic and without taking into consideration the +add dmg from the 2 skills, but it is false for every wizard out there, including your own), then YOU talked about how to improve the MAXIMUM DPS of your BM2 (again, such generic usage of words would imply a regular WI BM2, not Spur's "I only use lvl 20 skills so show me a better way to improve DPS with lvl 20 skills only"), so I showed you that lowering your skill levels would provide the optimization you were looking for (sorry for not asking you whether you would consider lowering the skill levels an option).

After all this, you are saying it's MY fault for not being able to comprehend proper English just because I'm European ? Excuse me, but who did more mistakes in expressing ideas in this thread ? Who's the one that diverts from subject to subject making mistake after mistake in his statements because he refuses to understand the subject of the thread and posts results of partial formulas for damage and misuses the syntax DPS when in fact it should be DPH (damage per hit or pair of hits) ?
Please, I had no intention of being aggressive, but the way you try to clean your hands of your faulty statements simply makes me sick and forces me to retaliate, seeing as you try to put this on my back, making me the one to blame for not reading posts and replying randomly, when in fact you give false statement replies based on incomplete/faulty mathematics and use of English language.

Spur got shat on again basically. LOL

rectumcanal
09-29-2010, 09:37 AM
Ok then, please correct me where I might have misunderstood (PS : In Romania we study US English not UK English, so I doubt I misunderstood anything)

1. First, WIPwns posts that people should remove their lances from the bar (to be read : bm2 bar) - You then tell him that lances have the highest DPS in combo (totally unrelated) and that not everyone learns their skills according to the BM bar (not like WIpwns ever suggested to folks that they should unlearn their lances, he simply stated they should not be used in BM2, that's all). Mistake on your side.

2. Then he says that the thread is about BM2, which is obvious due to the title, and you contradict him saying that this thread is about Wizzies, just because you directed the conversation in a wrong way and you feel like continuing to talk about the DPS skills of the wizard. Mistake on your side number 2, as the thread was started with the subject BM2, not "Let's talk about wizards because I'm Spur and I say so". If you want to talk about lances and DPS please make your own thread, next time.

3. You then say that the only reason he posted the chart is because he mocks you (although he never mentioned your name specifically, mistake number 3 for feeling targeted) due to your lvl 20 skills. You stated that you have 12 skills for MAXIMUM DPS, not maximum DPS while having all skills at level 20 because Spur likes to play that way, so everyone (myself included) assumed you are talking about how to obtain maximum DPS for a wizard, no matter the skill levels, not how to obtain maximum DPS while using all skills at 20.

4. You said you are running out of skillpoints not slots, so I showed you how you can improve your MAXIMUM DPS (as you expressed yourself in the post) with less skill points, that's why I based my calculation over the duration of a whole BM and not a single pair of hits. (for me maximum DPS reffers to maximum damage achievable per second, not per 1 cast, so I immediately thought of 90 seconds, which is what 99% of any readers would have thought about as well)

5. I then asked you how can your cannon deal more damage than EDC, and your reply was : maybe your magic is too low (again, misunderstanding, because I was thinking about the total damage output, the end-result of the formula, not just multiplying magic with AMP, as LastHour said, there's also the +add dmg from skill, which I believe you didn't take into consideration when saying, but I didn't know you ignored it from your calculation). So I showed you that the end-result damage formula, not the partial damage formula, inclines the balance towards EDC, no matter the def or magic of the char.


In closing : The subject of the thread was BM2, not a single pair of hits in BM2, am I right ? Thread starter told everyone to remove their lances from the BM2 bar, because they deal low damage, which is 100% accurate. Then the discussion degenerated due to the misuse of maximum DPS in one of your posts, so I focused my attention on detailing the actual maximum DPS of the BM2.
Indeed, 8 + 4 > 5 + 5, but that applies to this particular comparison only, not the maximum DPS that you mentioned, which in my eyes is calculated over the whole 90 second duration of the BM, and where your comparison becomes null, as the maximum DPS of 90 seconds consists of more pairs of 5+5 that are spammed, when compared to less 8+4 pairs. In the end, 5+5 multiple times will outdamage 8+4 which are cast less times, that's all I wanted to say.

In other words : YOU went offtopic and deviated the subject towards lances use in a wizard's skilltree (not bm2 bar as thread subject), then YOU didn't take into consideration the whole formula of damage output when comparing cannons to EDC, and stated that LC > EDC (which is true, for an incredible amount of magic and without taking into consideration the +add dmg from the 2 skills, but it is false for every wizard out there, including your own), then YOU talked about how to improve the MAXIMUM DPS of your BM2 (again, such generic usage of words would imply a regular WI BM2, not Spur's "I only use lvl 20 skills so show me a better way to improve DPS with lvl 20 skills only"), so I showed you that lowering your skill levels would provide the optimization you were looking for (sorry for not asking you whether you would consider lowering the skill levels an option).

After all this, you are saying it's MY fault for not being able to comprehend proper English just because I'm European ? Excuse me, but who did more mistakes in expressing ideas in this thread ? Who's the one that diverts from subject to subject making mistake after mistake in his statements because he refuses to understand the subject of the thread and posts results of partial formulas for damage and misuses the syntax DPS when in fact it should be DPH (damage per hit or pair of hits) ?
Please, I had no intention of being aggressive, but the way you try to clean your hands of your faulty statements simply makes me sick and forces me to retaliate, seeing as you try to put this on my back, making me the one to blame for not reading posts and replying randomly, when in fact you give false statement replies based on incomplete/faulty mathematics and use of English language.

wanna write my essay thats due tomorrow?

Chris7
09-29-2010, 10:56 AM
spur, once you're done eating Ratza's sht would you be a dear and lick any remains that may be on my toilet?

I think I missed.

rectumcanal
09-29-2010, 11:08 AM
now we know you werent potty trained properly..

WIpwns
09-29-2010, 12:12 PM
I've probably been playing this game longer than you
I have something called a life.

cool story bro

Rage
09-29-2010, 12:52 PM
wanna write my essay thats due tomorrow?

lol. omfg. spur just pull a lethal and leave forums for 3 months.

RekeesEnivid
09-29-2010, 01:55 PM
lol. omfg. spur just pull a lethal and leave forums for 3 months.

lol. spur fell silent... booking a trip wit his travel agent now

supachode
09-29-2010, 02:46 PM
Ok then, please correct me where I might have misunderstood (PS : In Romania we study US English not UK English, so I doubt I misunderstood anything)

1. First, WIPwns posts that people should remove their lances from the bar (to be read : bm2 bar) - You then tell him that lances have the highest DPS in combo (totally unrelated) and that not everyone learns their skills according to the BM bar (not like WIpwns ever suggested to folks that they should unlearn their lances, he simply stated they should not be used in BM2, that's all). Mistake on your side.

2. Then he says that the thread is about BM2, which is obvious due to the title, and you contradict him saying that this thread is about Wizzies, just because you directed the conversation in a wrong way and you feel like continuing to talk about the DPS skills of the wizard. Mistake on your side number 2, as the thread was started with the subject BM2, not "Let's talk about wizards because I'm Spur and I say so". If you want to talk about lances and DPS please make your own thread, next time.

3. You then say that the only reason he posted the chart is because he mocks you (although he never mentioned your name specifically, mistake number 3 for feeling targeted) due to your lvl 20 skills. You stated that you have 12 skills for MAXIMUM DPS, not maximum DPS while having all skills at level 20 because Spur likes to play that way, so everyone (myself included) assumed you are talking about how to obtain maximum DPS for a wizard, no matter the skill levels, not how to obtain maximum DPS while using all skills at 20.

4. You said you are running out of skillpoints not slots, so I showed you how you can improve your MAXIMUM DPS (as you expressed yourself in the post) with less skill points, that's why I based my calculation over the duration of a whole BM and not a single pair of hits. (for me maximum DPS reffers to maximum damage achievable per second, not per 1 cast, so I immediately thought of 90 seconds, which is what 99% of any readers would have thought about as well)

5. I then asked you how can your cannon deal more damage than EDC, and your reply was : maybe your magic is too low (again, misunderstanding, because I was thinking about the total damage output, the end-result of the formula, not just multiplying magic with AMP, as LastHour said, there's also the +add dmg from skill, which I believe you didn't take into consideration when saying, but I didn't know you ignored it from your calculation). So I showed you that the end-result damage formula, not the partial damage formula, inclines the balance towards EDC, no matter the def or magic of the char.


In closing : The subject of the thread was BM2, not a single pair of hits in BM2, am I right ? Thread starter told everyone to remove their lances from the BM2 bar, because they deal low damage, which is 100% accurate. Then the discussion degenerated due to the misuse of maximum DPS in one of your posts, so I focused my attention on detailing the actual maximum DPS of the BM2.
Indeed, 8 + 4 > 5 + 5, but that applies to this particular comparison only, not the maximum DPS that you mentioned, which in my eyes is calculated over the whole 90 second duration of the BM, and where your comparison becomes null, as the maximum DPS of 90 seconds consists of more pairs of 5+5 that are spammed, when compared to less 8+4 pairs. In the end, 5+5 multiple times will outdamage 8+4 which are cast less times, that's all I wanted to say.

In other words : YOU went offtopic and deviated the subject towards lances use in a wizard's skilltree (not bm2 bar as thread subject), then YOU didn't take into consideration the whole formula of damage output when comparing cannons to EDC, and stated that LC > EDC (which is true, for an incredible amount of magic and without taking into consideration the +add dmg from the 2 skills, but it is false for every wizard out there, including your own), then YOU talked about how to improve the MAXIMUM DPS of your BM2 (again, such generic usage of words would imply a regular WI BM2, not Spur's "I only use lvl 20 skills so show me a better way to improve DPS with lvl 20 skills only"), so I showed you that lowering your skill levels would provide the optimization you were looking for (sorry for not asking you whether you would consider lowering the skill levels an option).

After all this, you are saying it's MY fault for not being able to comprehend proper English just because I'm European ? Excuse me, but who did more mistakes in expressing ideas in this thread ? Who's the one that diverts from subject to subject making mistake after mistake in his statements because he refuses to understand the subject of the thread and posts results of partial formulas for damage and misuses the syntax DPS when in fact it should be DPH (damage per hit or pair of hits) ?
Please, I had no intention of being aggressive, but the way you try to clean your hands of your faulty statements simply makes me sick and forces me to retaliate, seeing as you try to put this on my back, making me the one to blame for not reading posts and replying randomly, when in fact you give false statement replies based on incomplete/faulty mathematics and use of English language.

welcome back neiro :cool:

Deathlymonkey
09-29-2010, 03:07 PM
cool story bro

Playing longer doesn't mean I spent more hours playing. It means I started playing BEFORE him. Try to find something smart before posting such shiet.

xLh
09-29-2010, 03:10 PM
Playing longer doesn't mean I spent more hours playing

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt211/WiII_photos/ewno.jpg

Deathlymonkey
09-29-2010, 03:13 PM
http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt211/WiII_photos/ewno.jpg

What is that suppose to mean? Je te fais chier?

xLh
09-29-2010, 03:52 PM
What is that suppose to mean? Je te fais chier?

It means i'm disgusted by your logic. What you posted could go multiple ways, so why are you flipping out?

WIpwns
09-29-2010, 05:02 PM
Playing longer doesn't mean I spent more hours playing. It means I started playing BEFORE him. Try to find something smart before posting such shiet.

longer = more
shoulda said "ive played before u" not "ive played longer than u"

LastHour
09-29-2010, 05:26 PM
i think i need to quote myself lol. i know ure from EU and maybe u read things differently but its called figure of speech, heres my post on the 3rd page. its kinda obvious i know cannons will not outdmg a lvl 9 or 12 sc/edc/met but when paired with a lvl 20 sc/edc they will. maybe u didnt see my little scenario on the bottom of that post. 8k+4k > 5k+5k my cannons are obviously the 4ks and they are obviously lower than the lv 9/12 which are 5ks

i cant believe u went thru a whole post about this one statement without reading the rest of it. of course the other NA noobs will just say watever and side along u even if they knew wat i said cause they cant beat me otherwise

Bleh misread and tired, but the main point is your still trying to make it about the power of a single dual cast and not the entirety of dual casts throughout the bm2. Will edit correct stuff back in later but something for you below:

I'm going to play devils-advocate against my better judgment and try to justify your 20 edc/sc anyway to save you some dignity here since you seem quite proud. [Just going to say the reason people can't beat you is likely because you out gear them 10b+ or something and not b/c you can do anything skillful like blink combo chase] As we all know you as an avid TGer, the 20 edc/sc has its logic [tho I prefer 18 if I want to play hard hit style]. Wiz is a traditionally a weak PvP char for reasons we all know, the biggest concern of which is low hp. In most TG cases and especially without the old bringer system, it doesn't take much to down a wiz or get them to run to heal. People don't typically let you sit back and DPS combo whether bm2, bm1, aura or w/e. That being said, you may only get off a single string of attacks before a mob chops off your hp in an instant or a hard hitting FS finisher halves your hp. If your only going to get off only a single string of attacks, they may as well hit as hard as they can. The cool doesn't matter since almost regardless of level they will all be cooled again by the time you heal and get back to the combat zone. Also for PvP you only ever get off a single string of attacks [against end-game opponents] and will probably never reuse a even 12 edc in a single PvP match. So for the avid pvper/TGer, it may be beneficial to go with high skill levels, its largely a judgment call on the average time you can spend fighting before running to heal [varies from player to player based on how other players KOS them, their gear, titles, etc]

Maybe instead of trying to backtrack and fail your defense of the pve bm2 argument you could've mentioned this, which places the whole bm2 argument up to pve or pvp preference. Anyone can go back unless you've edited it out already of how you've backtracked several times with lances, then cannons, etc. Know when to call it quits.

Matrimoney
09-29-2010, 05:38 PM
Spur's obviously a moron and doesn't understand what any of you guys are trying to say, so I'll give an example even a toddler can understand. I put my EDC/SC at 9 and Meteor at 12 and have noticed a HUGE DPS increase when in BM2...sure I hit less with EDC/SC/Meteor, but I cast them so often I hardly have to use my cannons.

otice1
09-29-2010, 05:52 PM
Since those are your hardest hitting moves for bm2 you want to be able to cast them often. By not using lvl 20 skills the cool down is low enough that they are able to be cast frequently enough that their lack of amp (from not being lvl 20) is overcompensated by their increase in usage.

Because some people (Spur) don't understand why lvl 9 skills are greater dps because you can cast them more frequently.

forumboo
09-29-2010, 05:56 PM
Ok then, please correct me where I might have misunderstood (PS : In Romania we study US English not UK English, so I doubt I misunderstood anything)

1. First, WIPwns posts that people should remove their lances from the bar (to be read : bm2 bar) - You then tell him that lances have the highest DPS in combo (totally unrelated) and that not everyone learns their skills according to the BM bar (not like WIpwns ever suggested to folks that they should unlearn their lances, he simply stated they should not be used in BM2, that's all). Mistake on your side.

2. Then he says that the thread is about BM2, which is obvious due to the title, and you contradict him saying that this thread is about Wizzies, just because you directed the conversation in a wrong way and you feel like continuing to talk about the DPS skills of the wizard. Mistake on your side number 2, as the thread was started with the subject BM2, not "Let's talk about wizards because I'm Spur and I say so". If you want to talk about lances and DPS please make your own thread, next time.

3. You then say that the only reason he posted the chart is because he mocks you (although he never mentioned your name specifically, mistake number 3 for feeling targeted) due to your lvl 20 skills. You stated that you have 12 skills for MAXIMUM DPS, not maximum DPS while having all skills at level 20 because Spur likes to play that way, so everyone (myself included) assumed you are talking about how to obtain maximum DPS for a wizard, no matter the skill levels, not how to obtain maximum DPS while using all skills at 20.

4. You said you are running out of skillpoints not slots, so I showed you how you can improve your MAXIMUM DPS (as you expressed yourself in the post) with less skill points, that's why I based my calculation over the duration of a whole BM and not a single pair of hits. (for me maximum DPS reffers to maximum damage achievable per second, not per 1 cast, so I immediately thought of 90 seconds, which is what 99% of any readers would have thought about as well)

5. I then asked you how can your cannon deal more damage than EDC, and your reply was : maybe your magic is too low (again, misunderstanding, because I was thinking about the total damage output, the end-result of the formula, not just multiplying magic with AMP, as LastHour said, there's also the +add dmg from skill, which I believe you didn't take into consideration when saying, but I didn't know you ignored it from your calculation). So I showed you that the end-result damage formula, not the partial damage formula, inclines the balance towards EDC, no matter the def or magic of the char.


In closing : The subject of the thread was BM2, not a single pair of hits in BM2, am I right ? Thread starter told everyone to remove their lances from the BM2 bar, because they deal low damage, which is 100% accurate. Then the discussion degenerated due to the misuse of maximum DPS in one of your posts, so I focused my attention on detailing the actual maximum DPS of the BM2.
Indeed, 8 + 4 > 5 + 5, but that applies to this particular comparison only, not the maximum DPS that you mentioned, which in my eyes is calculated over the whole 90 second duration of the BM, and where your comparison becomes null, as the maximum DPS of 90 seconds consists of more pairs of 5+5 that are spammed, when compared to less 8+4 pairs. In the end, 5+5 multiple times will outdamage 8+4 which are cast less times, that's all I wanted to say.

In other words : YOU went offtopic and deviated the subject towards lances use in a wizard's skilltree (not bm2 bar as thread subject), then YOU didn't take into consideration the whole formula of damage output when comparing cannons to EDC, and stated that LC > EDC (which is true, for an incredible amount of magic and without taking into consideration the +add dmg from the 2 skills, but it is false for every wizard out there, including your own), then YOU talked about how to improve the MAXIMUM DPS of your BM2 (again, such generic usage of words would imply a regular WI BM2, not Spur's "I only use lvl 20 skills so show me a better way to improve DPS with lvl 20 skills only"), so I showed you that lowering your skill levels would provide the optimization you were looking for (sorry for not asking you whether you would consider lowering the skill levels an option).

After all this, you are saying it's MY fault for not being able to comprehend proper English just because I'm European ? Excuse me, but who did more mistakes in expressing ideas in this thread ? Who's the one that diverts from subject to subject making mistake after mistake in his statements because he refuses to understand the subject of the thread and posts results of partial formulas for damage and misuses the syntax DPS when in fact it should be DPH (damage per hit or pair of hits) ?
Please, I had no intention of being aggressive, but the way you try to clean your hands of your faulty statements simply makes me sick and forces me to retaliate, seeing as you try to put this on my back, making me the one to blame for not reading posts and replying randomly, when in fact you give false statement replies based on incomplete/faulty mathematics and use of English language.
+1

WIpwns
09-29-2010, 06:04 PM
inb4 lethal calling every1 ner ds

OhEmGee
09-29-2010, 06:07 PM
Dam, super shat on >_>

iSeeYou123
09-29-2010, 06:49 PM
RatzaTM i like your essays bro..

chainlock
09-29-2010, 07:54 PM
Spur's obviously a moron and doesn't understand what any of you guys are trying to say, so I'll give an example even a toddler can understand. I put my EDC/SC at 9 and Meteor at 12 and have noticed a HUGE DPS increase when in BM2...sure I hit less with EDC/SC/Meteor, but I cast them so often I hardly have to use my cannons.

It might just be because my wizard isn't as strong, but it takes me the same amount of time to kill pf bosses with the 3 big skills at any level range from 9-20.

Matrimoney
09-29-2010, 08:00 PM
It might just be because my wizard isn't as strong, but it takes me the same amount of time to kill pf bosses with the 3 big skills at any level range from 9-20.

prolly cuz u got bad dmg lol
i went from 2 baring quads 1/5 attempts with lvl 18 met/edc/sc to pretty much 2 baring every time with them at 12 and 9

same with tanks, 1/5 of the solos were 1 bar, now its pretty much every time

go try the difference in dps on derk, he doesnt regen

chainlock
09-29-2010, 08:13 PM
prolly cuz u got bad dmg lol
i went from 2 baring quads 1/5 attempts with lvl 18 met/edc/sc to pretty much 2 baring every time with them at 12 and 9

same with tanks, 1/5 of the solos were 1 bar, now its pretty much every time

go try the difference in dps on derk, he doesnt regen

If you don't mind, make a video of doing a boss with them how you have it set now and then set them to 18/20 and do it again. Show the skill level in the video, I've had 6 different wizards test it and it's the same result for all of us.

Matrimoney
09-29-2010, 08:19 PM
If you don't mind, make a video of doing a boss with them how you have it set now and then set them to 18/20 and do it again. Show the skill level in the video, I've had 6 different wizards test it and it's the same result for all of us.

are you kidding im not wasting time doing that...rofl...why would i even lie about it anyway? if u want u can come watch me do it, but im def not wasting time recording, editing and then uploading 2 different vids

RatzaTM
09-29-2010, 10:46 PM
RatzaTM i like your essays bro..

Thanks "bro"

I'd rather write an essay that actually sends out a message than writing a LOL which makes me look retarded and lacking decent education.
@chainlock : You can use the pen-and-paper D&D style and find out how many seconds you need to kill Berderk with your set. Yeah, it can be done. It's all about math. Whatever calculations you do on paper, they will be valid in-game too, as the game uses the same math as you did. You don't need a video to prove stuff, it can be proven even outside the game.

chainlock
09-29-2010, 11:23 PM
Thanks "bro"

I'd rather write an essay that actually sends out a message than writing a LOL which makes me look retarded and lacking decent education.
@chainlock : You can use the pen-and-paper D&D style and find out how many seconds you need to kill Berderk with your set. Yeah, it can be done. It's all about math. Whatever calculations you do on paper, they will be valid in-game too, as the game uses the same math as you did. You don't need a video to prove stuff, it can be proven even outside the game.

Not going to agree or disagree. I'll just ask you to show me. Why does it take me the same amount of time to kill the same bosses no matter where my skills are from 9-20?

Matrimoney
09-29-2010, 11:32 PM
Not going to agree or disagree. I'll just ask you to show me. Why does it take me the same amount of time to kill the same bosses no matter where my skills are from 9-20?

I find that hard to believe. Do you even have EDC/SC/Meteor as your first 3 skills on your BM2 bar? If so, EDC/SC at 9 are casted pretty often and hit harder than most of your other skills even at 9 while in BM2.

RatzaTM
09-29-2010, 11:32 PM
Not going to agree or disagree. I'll just ask you to show me. Why does it take me the same amount of time to kill the same bosses no matter where my skills are from 9-20?

Because you crit differently. If you would hit ONLY non crits or ONLY crits, you would kill faster with them at 9. But like this, having a mix of crit and non crit, the killing time is averaged and it appears to be the same. You can do the math with the average values and not the crit values of skills, and you can see the results then. Your colleague LastHour did a more than excellent job with his DMG Calculator, and it takes into consideration every aspect of the game (crit rate, crit damage, average dps, etc)

LastHour
09-29-2010, 11:38 PM
Not going to agree or disagree. I'll just ask you to show me. Why does it take me the same amount of time to kill the same bosses no matter where my skills are from 9-20?

It can depend on your crit rate. If you have a lower critical rate especially, the total criticals for your bm2 can fluctuate a little leading to less total damage in the end. This can still happen whether your critical rate is 40% or 60% or w/e. Sometimes I've noticed finishing a boss within my last skill and other times with 5 seconds or so to spare using the exact same gear set. Its usually not a gigantic difference, since the more skills you use the closer you get to your true average [your critical rate], but its still likely going to go off way one or another a little. Ex: A full bm2 might be within the range of +/- 10 criticals from making your true average, those +/- 10 criticals could be masking the difference for your bm2 test.

When we use math and analyze like we did here, we would assume the average. Over a full bm2 and certainly over the course of all your bm2s, it is likely you will not be far off from your critical rate and thus safe to assume when we talk about long term usage. Your bm2 efficiency wouldn't change much from the theory ratza has backed up for going something like +/- 2% rate. The difference is large enough you can pretty much assume the conclusion [9-12 skills are most efficient for comp/gm in bm2] would hold true even with the standard deviation of your criticals.

It also sounds like your just eyeballing it, and especially if you have low damage, you won't notice as much difference and leave yourself up to human error. I'm sure someone might be able to record and put them side by side to show you the difference, but it'd be a waste of time proving something already proven.

Edit: Dang ratza beat me in typing up :P

RatzaTM
09-29-2010, 11:51 PM
Also, I'd like to point out that the %CR you see is not Mathematical Percentage of Crit Rate, it's actually Probability Percentage of Crit Rate.
Mathematical Percentage means that out of the total number of hits you critted half of them, while probability percentage means that EACH hit has a 50-50 chance of critting, which can result in 0 crits or all-the-time-crit.
What this means is that with 50% CR, you will not crit half of the time. The game doesn't know how many skills you will cast, whether you will cast 10 skills so as to make you crit 5 times or 200 skills, so as to make you crit 100 times.

Each hit you make has its own chance of critting or not, that's why you might crit twice in 10 hits with 50% CR or you might crit 8 times with 10 hits.
The misconception about this %CR is based on your number of samples. While 2/10 or 8/10 might not explain the 50% CR, once you increase the sample number of hits from 10 to 200, your fluctuation will drop (it won't fluctuate between 20% and 80% mathematical percentages) and you will get closer and closer to the real %CR shown in C stats.

I actually hit a friend of mine 500 times to prove this, with the same skill and 40% CR and 50% CR. On a smaller sample of hits, the 40% CR critted more often, but as I was reaching 500 hits with each set, the 40% CR yielded somewhere around 190 - 195 crits (which is almost 40%) while the 50% CR yielded 230 or so crits (which is close to 250, the 50%). Thus said, if you really want to see any difference in gear and crits and so on, you need a much bigger sample of hits than the ones from a single BM2.

However, this does not mean that there isn't any increase in DPS, it's just not that extreme so as to finish Derk with 1 bar instead of 2 with same gear. In dungeons though, when you go BM2 multiples times and you are running against the clock, you will notice the difference immediately.

chainlock
09-29-2010, 11:54 PM
I'm judging it by looking at how much time is left in bm when I finish. No matter how I arrange the skill levels of the 3 big skills it never differs by more than a few seconds, which can be explained by crits and non crits. Having the skills at 9 or 12 is supposed to be a HUGE increase, but myself and the people that have tested with me don't see those results in game.


However, this does not mean that there isn't any increase in DPS, it's just not that extreme so as to finish Derk with 1 bar instead of 2 with same gear. In dungeons though, when you go BM2 multiples times and you are running against the clock, you will notice the difference immediately.

I thought about this too. My friend and I 2 man IC daily and have tested in there too, the dungeon takes us pretty much the same amount of time no matter how our skills are set every run. He is also a wiz.

RatzaTM
09-30-2010, 12:03 AM
I'm judging it by looking at how much time is left in bm when I finish. No matter how I arrange the skill levels of the 3 big skills it never differs by more than a few seconds, which can be explained by crits and non crits. Having the skills at 9 or 12 is supposed to be a HUGE increase, but myself and the people that have tested with me don't see those results in game.

I thought about this too. My friend and I 2 man IC daily and have tested in there too, the dungeon takes us pretty much the same amount of time no matter how our skills are set every run. He is also a wiz.

Ok then :D Let's do it some other way.
Please post your stats outside BM (magic / cr / cd / amp) and the BM2 bar that you use (the one with lvl 18 - 20 skills) like : SC 20 - EDC 18 - etc ..

Matrimoney
09-30-2010, 12:10 AM
I'm judging it by looking at how much time is left in bm when I finish. No matter how I arrange the skill levels of the 3 big skills it never differs by more than a few seconds, which can be explained by crits and non crits. Having the skills at 9 or 12 is supposed to be a HUGE increase, but myself and the people that have tested with me don't see those results in game.



I thought about this too. My friend and I 2 man IC daily and have tested in there too, the dungeon takes us pretty much the same amount of time no matter how our skills are set every run. He is also a wiz.

You're making it seem like lowering your skills somehow adds 10% M.amp to your character. You don't notice a difference because your DPS is low, meaning if changing your skills to 12/9 increases your DPS by 10%, you won't notice a big difference if your DPS is already low. My DPS is high, meaning I can see a noticeable difference when killing Quads and Rotas.

In other words...

If your DPS is lets say...20/100 and it increases by 20%, you're now at 24/100 (+4 DPS)
vs.
If my DPS is 80/100 and it increases by 20%, I'd be at 96/100 (+16 DPS)

See what I'm getting at?

LastHour
09-30-2010, 12:13 AM
I'm judging it by looking at how much time is left in bm when I finish. No matter how I arrange the skill levels of the 3 big skills it never differs by more than a few seconds, which can be explained by crits and non crits. Having the skills at 9 or 12 is supposed to be a HUGE increase, but myself and the people that have tested with me don't see those results in game.



I thought about this too. My friend and I 2 man IC daily and have tested in there too, the dungeon takes us pretty much the same amount of time no matter how our skills are set every run. He is also a wiz.

Ratza originally did his tests showing the maximum difference [critting every EDC], which would not be likely but proves the point best showing that difference in range. On average the 20 edc might hit for say 4.8-4.9k instead of the 7.2k crit when you take non-critical into account. This would decrease the differences between all skills to their average, and you may wind up with something like 25k-30k damage difference in total for the EDC in bm2 instead of like 50k. Considering if you can dual crit 5-7k, thats only a few hits but its still an advantage regardless.

Also as we said with fluctuation in criticals, you can be losing or gaining damage off your average from there. If you have 50% critical rate and over the entire bm2 lets say you fall 1 critical short of that 50% rate so a skill does 2k-3k dual cast instead of something like 6k-3k, well thats 4k lost off the 25k or so you gain from the lower skill levels. This is why it seems so small, the combination of all factors makes it hard to see but you can still tell its there over time and with our tests.

Which skills you crit is also important, even if you hit 50% rate, it is more advantageous to crit the highest power skills [EDC/SC] since the higher base will produce an even bigger difference on the criticals than they had on the non-criticals.

Ex: If EDC hits 2200 non-crit with 230% critical damage, roughly 7260 damage on the crit or a gain of 5060 damage. Now if lightning cannon does something like 1900 non-critical damage, it would roughly do 6270 on the critical which is only a gain of 4370. When you consider you will cast less than 20 EDCs during a single bm2, you can lose tons of damage if you say crit only 2 of those even if your overall rate matches your critical rate.

All these factors make a difference, but the lvl 9 EDC is a guaranteed difference and not a random difference as which skills you crit and how often you crit is.

RatzaTM
09-30-2010, 12:17 AM
You're making it seem like lowering your skills somehow adds 10% M.amp to your character. You don't notice a difference because your DPS is low, meaning if changing your skills to 12/9 increases your DPS by 10%, you won't notice a big difference if your DPS is already low. My DPS is high, meaning I can see a noticeable difference when killing Quads and Rotas.

To second this : 5% bonus on an average DPS of 3000 is 3150 new average / 5% bonus on an average of 8000 is 8400 new average. Now let's assume you have a mob that regenerates 400 HP / second. Your optimized bar will help you deal more damage, but the difference is not huge, you can't even cover the HP regen of the mob, even with optimized bar. On the other hand, at higher DPS, Matrimoney would be able to nullify the Mob's HP regen, dealing the other 8k as pure damage, while 400 is counter-balanced by Regen. So with the newly improved bar, Matrimoney can deny the regen, while your gear helps you deny 25% of it.

PS : @Chainlock - Don't forget the stats please :P

chainlock
09-30-2010, 12:25 AM
Ok then :D Let's do it some other way.
Please post your stats (magic / cr / cd / amp) and the BM2 bar that you use (the one with lvl 18 - 20 skills) like : SC 20 - EDC 18 - etc ..

1018 m.atk, 51 cr, 139cd, 53 amp. Not in BM/aura. Level 154.

space c, edc, meteor, af, hs, lc, at, vacuum, sc, fc, ac, ce. I think is the order, I have terra lance and fire lance on the top bar just incase they have to go off, but I don't think they do. Can't get ingame right now to look. I'm not even sure which skills go off right now since I have been testing what is supposed to be the best wizard bm2 set up, according to the calculator, the last few days.

Sorry it took a bit to get this posted. My net dropped.

Matrimoney
09-30-2010, 12:28 AM
have u tried edc/sc at 9 and meteor at 12? or are you trying all 3 at 12? cuz that isnt that much of a difference in terms of cd's between 15 and 12..

chainlock
09-30-2010, 12:33 AM
Right now I'm trying them all at 9.

Matrimoney
09-30-2010, 12:37 AM
Right now I'm trying them all at 9.

Try them all at 9, then try them at 18 and try telling me you don't notice a difference....

chainlock
09-30-2010, 12:38 AM
Try them all at 9, then try them at 18 and try telling me you don't notice a difference....

I haven't noticed one between 12, 18, 20. We'll see if 9 makes the difference.

Matrimoney
09-30-2010, 12:40 AM
I haven't noticed one between 12, 18, 20. We'll see if 9 makes the difference.

the cooldowns between 9 and 12 on edc/sc are huge in your bm2 bar

chainlock
09-30-2010, 12:56 AM
IF I'm reading the bm2 calculator right, the best set up for me should be.

AF 20, space 9, edc 9, meteor 9, lc 20, hs 20, sc 20, vacuum 20, at 20, fc 20.

Matrimoney
09-30-2010, 12:59 AM
IF I'm reading the bm2 calculator right, the best set up for me should be.

AF 20, space 9, edc 9, meteor 9, lc 20, hs 20, sc 20, vacuum 20, at 20, fc 20.

eh lc should be acter vac and i forgot which 1 buteither af or hs should be at 18 b/c the cd on 20 is redic

chainlock
09-30-2010, 01:14 AM
eh lc should be acter vac and i forgot which 1 buteither af or hs should be at 18 b/c the cd on 20 is redic

LC is stronger than vac in bm. The cool down of AF at 20 is 11.6, but the calculator says that's the best.

Playing with it some more it shows the following as my best dps in bm2/aura.

space 18, af 20, edc 9, meteor 9/15, lc 20, hs 20, sc 20, vacuum 20, at 20, fc 20.

The calculator refuses to accept skills with a cool down over 14 seconds, meaning you can't calculate meteor or space collapse at 20 with it.

RatzaTM
09-30-2010, 01:17 AM
1018 m.atk, 51 cr, 139cd, 50 amp. Not in BM/aura. Level 154.

space c, edc, meteor, af, hs, lc, at, vacuum, sc, fc, ac, ce. I think is the order, I have terra lance and fire lance on the top bar just incase they have to go off, but I don't think they do. Can't get ingame right now to look. I'm not even sure which skills go off right now since I have been testing what is supposed to be the best wizard bm2 set up, according to the calculator, the last few days.

Sorry it took a bit to get this posted. My net dropped.

I can tell you right now that unless the mob moves, AF won't go off as it has lower range than SC. I personally deleted AF from the bar, due to TG, to gain 1 extra range at the expense of losing some damage. You might not believe me, but having 4 as lowest range instead of 3 made a huge difference for me, especially as AF had the nasty habit of casting on its own, not accepting a second skill in dual caster mode.

If you want, I can help you with finding the best BM2 bar, but I need to be able to reproduce your character in the Char Builder. For this, I need to know the exact gear you use, the stats won't suffice solely.

Matrimoney
09-30-2010, 01:17 AM
at 18 its like 7.9...i dont think adding 3.7 secs to the cd is really worth it..

since when does lc hit harder than vac? last time i checked it lc came after vac and ce...

Matrimoney
09-30-2010, 01:20 AM
I can tell you right now that unless the mob moves, AF won't go off as it has lower range than SC. I personally deleted AF from the bar, due to TG, to gain 1 extra range at the expense of losing some damage. You might not believe me, but having 4 as lowest range instead of 3 made a huge difference for me, especially as AF had the nasty habit of casting on its own, not accepting a second skill in dual caster mode.



If you want, I can help you with finding the best BM2 bar, but I need to be able to reproduce your character in the Char Builder. For this, I need to know the exact gear you use, the stats won't suffice solely.

help me with a bar broskieeeeeeeeeee

1115 matk
49 amp
53 rate
161 cd

RatzaTM
09-30-2010, 01:26 AM
help me with a bar broskieeeeeeeeeee

1115 matk
49 amp
53 rate
161 cd

I will, just have to finish some stuff here at work, and I will start doing the math on paper, D&D style.

chainlock
09-30-2010, 01:41 AM
Ok, so far level 9 is failing compared to 12 and 18 mix with my current gear. Would like to see the numbers if it would let me put SC and meteor at 20 to compare.

You can see on the left side with level 12 gm and 18 comp/trans the dps is 7773. With level 9 of all 3, on the right side, it's 7758.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h210/tjxs/wizardbm2.jpg


at 18 its like 7.9...i dont think adding 3.7 secs to the cd is really worth it..

since when does lc hit harder than vac? last time i checked it lc came after vac and ce...

The lower amp vac and chain have make the cannons do more with higher m.atk.

RatzaTM
09-30-2010, 01:52 AM
That's the main flaw of the calculator : It does the math for AVERAGE (crit and non crit) DPS, not maximum DPS.

What are you interested in ? How much damage would you have on non crits, on crits, or the average ? I always go for the dmg on crits, because I am hoping to crit as often as possible, and doing my best to have highest CR achievable. That's why I never compare the AVG damage (which is better on 18 due to higher amp and +add dmg). I always compare the Maximum dmg achievable, because I'm not going to kill Rota with non crits in my head, I'm expecting my char to crit like hell. If I crit, I know I did max damage, if I don't crit, no math will help me optimize damage output anyhow, so it's useless to calculate the AVG dmg.

If you want, look at the x50 or x40 on the right, and post how many times Trans + Compl + GMaster skills are cast on each situation. I'm interested to know T+C+G for 18 and T+C+G for 9, to find out how many times you can fit them in those 400 skills cast.

Matrimoney
09-30-2010, 02:14 AM
That's the main flaw of the calculator : It does the math for AVERAGE (crit and non crit) DPS, not maximum DPS.

What are you interested in ? How much damage would you have on non crits, on crits, or the average ? I always go for the dmg on crits, because I am hoping to crit as often as possible, and doing my best to have highest CR achievable. That's why I never compare the AVG damage (which is better on 18 due to higher amp and +add dmg). I always compare the Maximum dmg achievable, because I'm not going to kill Rota with non crits in my head, I'm expecting my char to crit like hell. If I crit, I know I did max damage, if I don't crit, no math will help me optimize damage output anyhow, so it's useless to calculate the AVG dmg.

If you want, look at the x50 or x40 on the right, and post how many times Trans + Compl + GMaster skills are cast on each situation. I'm interested to know T+C+G for 18 and T+C+G for 9, to find out how many times you can fit them in those 400 skills cast.

Crit and AVG is what I'm interested in. I've got EDC/SC at 9 with Meteor at 12 and AF at 18, which lets me 1 bar Tanks 80% of the time, and 2 bar Quads 80% of the time.

RatzaTM
09-30-2010, 02:22 AM
Crit and AVG is what I'm interested in. I've got EDC/SC at 9 with Meteor at 12 and AF at 18, which lets me 1 bar Tanks 80% of the time, and 2 bar Quads 80% of the time.

Yeah, but you see, the 2 situations rule each other out :

When you rely on AVG, you set your bar somewhere at 50-50, taking non crits into consideration. Well hell, if you're at it, why not take out rate completely, go fight with 24 rate (aura + base) and then you will fully use this average DPS bar, since you're so afraid of what might happen if you don't crit.
When you rely on Max Crit DPS, you set your bar all the way to the right, taking only crits into consideration. This means that you know what is your maximum DPS and you are prepared to dish it out (provided that you do indeed crit ofc).

Now, this is only a matter of perspective, but think of it this way : would you rather use a good average DPS bar and potentially lose the extra juice from a max DPS bar, and limit yourself at 70% of potential, or unlock the full 100% potential of your character and then do your best into totally using that potential.

With Average DPS, you are aware that you could do more damage, but you limit yourself knowingly, not taking any chances; with Max DPS, you remove all boundaries and unlock the full potential of the char (which might be or not be used, depending on crits). From my experience, I don't have problems critting, thus I will aim the bar for max DPS not average DPS, as soon as I start playing WI again (if ever).

Matrimoney
09-30-2010, 02:29 AM
Yeah, but you see, the 2 situations rule each other out :

When you rely on AVG, you set your bar somewhere at 50-50, taking non crits into consideration. Well hell, if you're at it, why not take out rate completely, go fight with 24 rate (aura + base) and then you will fully use this average DPS bar, since you're so afraid of what might happen if you don't crit.
When you rely on Max Crit DPS, you set your bar all the way to the right, taking only crits into consideration. This means that you know what is your maximum DPS and you are prepared to dish it out (provided that you do indeed crit ofc).

Now, this is only a matter of perspective, but think of it this way : would you rather use a good average DPS bar and potentially lose the extra juice from a max DPS bar, and limit yourself at 70% of potential, or unlock the full 100% potential of your character and then do your best into totally using that potential.

With Average DPS, you are aware that you could do more damage, but you limit yourself knowingly, not taking any chances; with Max DPS, you remove all boundaries and unlock the full potential of the char (which might be or not be used, depending on crits). From my experience, I don't have problems critting, thus I will aim the bar for max DPS not average DPS, as soon as I start playing WI again (if ever).

I know what you mean, and of course I rely on crits in BM2, every WI does, but I'd like to know both to find out if theres a certain bar that has the best AVG and crit, or find something in the middle. As for an overall bar, I'd go with the all crit BM2 bar, since I'm at 53 rate and crit more often than not, especially when bossing/dungeoning and bosses are PC'd and HL'd.

LastHour
09-30-2010, 02:37 AM
That's the main flaw of the calculator : It does the math for AVERAGE (crit and non crit) DPS, not maximum DPS.

What are you interested in ? How much damage would you have on non crits, on crits, or the average ? I always go for the dmg on crits, because I am hoping to crit as often as possible, and doing my best to have highest CR achievable. That's why I never compare the AVG damage (which is better on 18 due to higher amp and +add dmg). I always compare the Maximum dmg achievable, because I'm not going to kill Rota with non crits in my head, I'm expecting my char to crit like hell. If I crit, I know I did max damage, if I don't crit, no math will help me optimize damage output anyhow, so it's useless to calculate the AVG dmg.

If you want, look at the x50 or x40 on the right, and post how many times Trans + Compl + GMaster skills are cast on each situation. I'm interested to know T+C+G for 18 and T+C+G for 9, to find out how many times you can fit them in those 400 skills cast.

The average damage and DPS of 20 edc to 9 or 12 is higher [makes sense, the power changes but not the cast time], but that is not the flaw. The flaw is the calculator does not make it clear how often you can use this higher dps due to the cooldown of the skills. Using that higher dps requires you fore go the power of better skills for quite some time and use the lower power of weaker skills for a longer time than you would with the lower EDC/SC option. I haven't personally tested the newest version of ell's calc so only you can speak for its validity.

Basically its you can hit once or twice at an extremely powerful hit, then stick to lower damage, or you can continuously fight at a medium power range. Peoples tendencies is to look at only one part of the equation or one set of skills, not the whole picture. Using 20 EDC would require putting in other lower power skills such as lances or low level cannons, taking longer for your bm2 to "cycle" over back to the beginning [20 edc] and use that higher power skill again. This as you proved, actually lowers the average output because the higher power of the skill does not make up for the loss in using the skill again sooner. Makes sense easily, the difference between a 12 and 20 edc may only be 150 damage, where as the difference between a 12 edc and aqua cannon may be 350 [example of a skill you would use to fill the cool time of 20 edc]. It's exactly why the math proves EDC has a better advantage over other skills than raising the power against itself.

What you did and proved actually all relates to average damage, not maximum power. Maximum power would be spurs build, which is to hit as hard as possible within a single skill. As we know from our good WA friends who have terra break though, power is not dps. Repetition, speed [in this case how fast the bm2 can "cycle"], and consistency are what make dps. Spur hits harder on some givens, but he can't maintain the 3 factors above of repetition, speed, and consistency which is why he ends up with a lower damage output then he could. Your build maintains those 3 factors, earning a higher dps which ultimately leads to better damage output in the end.

The combo tester of my calc was originally meant for this purpose [bm1/aura/non-bm], testing those differences in how often you can use a dps [like 20 EDC vs 9/12] and computing the average among the combo. As we noticed however, even among some of the longest term players, they can get confused by the idea and it was often never really used or understood.

Maybe I'll work on a correct bm2 builder that will calculate a complete cycle and take it over 90 seconds to show this more thoroughly for everyone. What is required to understand it is one complete rotation of all skills used in bm2 given their order, and how many repetitions of that cycle can be done in 90 seconds [bm time]. It seems it would be a useful tool for many.

WIpwns
09-30-2010, 02:56 AM
RatzaTM i like your essays bro..

it was actually worth reading

ure a fob and probably dont understand a single word he said

RatzaTM
09-30-2010, 04:00 AM
Would be awesome to have time to build such tool . I'm barely finding time to reply here and there, while at work. Props up and thanks for clearing my posts up. It was meant as maximum DPS not power, and max dps only on crits, indeed

chainlock
09-30-2010, 09:10 AM
I went on and changed a few things to maximize crit damage and have less rate, the calc said my average went down. The calculator and results in game proved to me it doesn't really matter where I set the skills from 9/20, the damage difference is not enough with my current build to make a noticeable impact.

Average dps gives you consistency. Wasn't this thread originally about the best average bm2 dps?

LastHour
09-30-2010, 11:40 AM
Would be awesome to have time to build such tool . I'm barely finding time to reply here and there, while at work. Props up and thanks for clearing my posts up. It was meant as maximum DPS not power, and max dps only on crits, indeed

Well maximum dps still is hard to grasp what you were aiming for on it, but I read it mainly as maximum DPS for a skill is only achieved when you crit, which would be correct. When talking about the entirety of your bm2 however, it is impossible [barring an extreme statistical exception] to maintain maximum DPS given this definition.

If a skill has higher non-critical DPS, I find it will also have higher critical DPS in comparison to another skill. This means Average DPS will do justice to your argument of the critical [max as you put it] DPS. This is because the only way in which a higher average DPS would not be the resultant of both a higher non-crit and critical DPS, is when a skill has a higher critical DPS and a lower non-critical DPS. That would be due to the skill modifier exceptions, because a greater multiplier was applied in the calculation of critical damage to one skill, but not the other, which changed the proportions. The exceptions of course are skills like these; critical shot, shield grenade and shield splinter and some BL skills. However for context of a wiz, that is irrelevant since we lack those modifiers.

Average DPS for the most part is maximum DPS [over time] when talking about something like a whole BM or string of attacks, unless the number of samples you have is small enough to ignore the possibility of non-critical, such as a 1-2-3-4-5 pvp. Here it would be possible to crit all skills, since especially as a wiz you may only get 3-4 skills off. Critting all 3-4 of those happens every once in a while with a decent rate. Heck, I've done it with 33-34% rate. Achieving that same phenomenon in bm2 against PvE would be nearly defying statistical odds, unless you can show me a bm2 where you never missed a critical.

Put simply, we could state:
Maximum "potential" DPS is achieved when average DPS = critical damage dps, or 100% critical rate, allowing you to also put on more critical damage/amp gear. What your reference to average DPS not taking risks or having lower juice in the bar than "Max DPS" mode, seems more of like this max "potential" DPS rather than a obtainable DPS. You can increase your "potential" DPS by lowering rate and going for more critical damage [since it technically is possible to have 100% critical rate over any time], this would raise the power with which they hit w/o any loss in frequency of cast or time spent casting. This isn't a likely value though, since you have given up consistency for more potential damage. As you said, I could go full damage gears and just use aura+base as my rate, this would give me the highest "potential", but it would likely never be used. Also, the only rate I can match with those with rate gear is 100% critical rate. Any other rate I would be gambling that I will hit above the average rate for my gear over the duration of my bm, which is harder and harder to do with the more skills you cast, since it will tend to approach the mean rate as you proved with earlier testing. Most bm2s if anything would end up at or below your mean since we use so many skills during a whole bm. You could win with higher potential, but the higher average DPS build would win out more consistently over time, basically you trade a few good BMs for several worse ones. I think this is what you really meant by "more juice in the bar".

Put below for the tl'dr people:

Max DPS of a skill = the DPS of a skill when it is a critical, or critical DPS
Max DPS over time = The highest average DPS that can be obtained, given a characters gear
Max "possible/potential" DPS = the maximum damage output that could be done by a char within a time interval. This is their damage output with full critical/amp gear at either 100% rate, or statistically exceeding their own rate mean by enough to match the rate foregone by giving up rate gear.

LastHour
09-30-2010, 06:43 PM
Sorry for double post, but testing appears to have revealed that double caster on average, casts every 1.74 seconds when auto attacking. This will give you about 50 dual casts [or 100 skills] within a bm2. Just thought it would be useful info for some wizs out there.

RatzaTM
09-30-2010, 10:50 PM
Sorry for double post, but testing appears to have revealed that double caster on average, casts every 1.74 seconds when auto attacking. This will give you about 50 dual casts [or 100 skills] within a bm2. Just thought it would be useful info for some wizs out there.

Yup, all skills receive a 1.7_ cast time while in BM2, that's why GM / Compl and other 2.0+s cast time skills receive a valuable improvement in damage per second, whereas lances get almost no bonus, since the improvement for them is from 1.8 to 1.7seconds.
This was also proven on EU roughly 2 years and a half ago, with frame by frame comparison.

Matrimoney
09-30-2010, 11:04 PM
Yup, all skills receive a 1.7_ cast time while in BM2, that's why GM / Compl and other 2.0+s cast time skills receive a valuable improvement in damage per second, whereas lances get almost no bonus, since the improvement for them is from 1.8 to 1.7seconds.
This was also proven on EU roughly 2 years and a half ago, with frame by frame comparison.

lemme know if you can figure out a good bm2 bar for me for max dps and highest dps :)

LastHour
09-30-2010, 11:06 PM
Yup, all skills receive a 1.7_ cast time while in BM2, that's why GM / Compl and other 2.0+s cast time skills receive a valuable improvement in damage per second, whereas lances get almost no bonus, since the improvement for them is from 1.8 to 1.7seconds.
This was also proven on EU roughly 2 years and a half ago, with frame by frame comparison.

Roughly what I did, along with comparing how many skills I got off over the whole bm2 to the time interval of attack to make sure they matched. I was told the accepted value was 1.8, and didn't find anything more exact.

It was important to me to retest since I had not heard of any work done with the auto attack update which made things slightly faster, though I haven't been on active on forums so perhaps I should've researched more. The game doesn't like the human input for some reason, never really registered things the same as the automated attack. Lag times or inconsistencies seemed to happen. I found in comparing the # of dual casts pre-update to post update, that it seems we can get off 3-5 more dual casts within a bm than we could before the auto attack update.

Spur
10-01-2010, 05:13 PM
lol just cause u guys are on every hour of the day doesnt mean im ignoring ure posts and im not gonna quote that 10paragraph essay. maximum dps is exactly wat im talking about and people on venus is a perfect example. everyone on venus prides on out gearing / outdpsing me yet my bm2 can get pluma lower than any of them care to explain y?

Matrimoney
10-01-2010, 05:55 PM
lol just cause u guys are on every hour of the day doesnt mean im ignoring ure posts and im not gonna quote that 10paragraph essay. maximum dps is exactly wat im talking about and people on venus is a perfect example. everyone on venus prides on out gearing / outdpsing me yet my bm2 can get pluma lower than any of them care to explain y?

Says the kid with HR18? Yeah, OK. Sorry but if you're refering to Rapchez's solo, it was what, 9 months ago? My solo was with garbage pots and was my first and only attempt. Like I said before, I got it much lower pre-update on my few attempts. Maximum DPS for you is what? if your BM2 only lasts long enough to cast EDC/SC/Meteor and another skill? Apparently so.

Spur
10-01-2010, 06:36 PM
Says the kid with HR18? Yeah, OK. Sorry but if you're refering to Rapchez's solo, it was what, 9 months ago? My solo was with garbage pots and was my first and only attempt. Like I said before, I got it much lower pre-update on my few attempts. Maximum DPS for you is what? if your BM2 only lasts long enough to cast EDC/SC/Meteor and another skill? Apparently so.

like i said right after ure pluma solo and on that thread itself. i used a plain 10% amp pot with no 2nd pot and got pluma lower than wat u got it to with a 30%amp and a 5rate 10cd

Rage
10-01-2010, 06:39 PM
like i said right after ure pluma solo and on that thread itself. i used a plain 10% amp pot with no 2nd pot and got pluma lower than wat u got it to with a 30%amp and a 5rate 10cd

sounds like you should be able to 2bar it then with a 30 amp buddy. lets see it.

Spur
10-01-2010, 06:44 PM
sounds like you should be able to 2bar it then with a 30 amp buddy. lets see it.

20%amp and 50matk for the other 1/2 of plumas hp? i wanna see u do it lol

Matrimoney
10-01-2010, 06:48 PM
lolwut?

Don't comprehend much do you? I attemped to solo it pre-update and had the DPS but I died, then after the update I tried it once and recorded it, which was my video.

Spur I don't see how you think you have more DPS than I do, are you that retarded or what?

You think your 7/34 orb and helm have higher dps than me? That'll be the day, got. Still waiting for your 2 bar Quad and 1 bar Tank videos, kid.

Spur
10-01-2010, 06:50 PM
Don't comprehend much do you? I attemped to solo it pre-update and had the DPS but I died, then after the update I tried it once and recorded it, which was my video.

Spur I don't see how you think you have more DPS than I do, are you that retarded or what?

You think your 7/34 orb and helm have higher dps than me? That'll be the day, got. Still waiting for your 2 bar Quad and 1 bar Tank videos, kid.

see wat im saying here ratza, matri here outgears me helm and orb wise yet my bm2+aura takes pluma down lower than him. shows how gear means nuthin when ones IQ is low like his

as i said i already 2 barred quad and many people have seen it. i am not gonna get a frap and ure not gonna believe no pots when others are frapping so wats the point

Matrimoney
10-01-2010, 07:09 PM
ok got

Still can't understand what I'm saying????

I attempted to solo it a few times B E F O R E the update and got it down further than in my V I D E O, then I tried it O N C E A F T E R the update, killed it easy and then uploaded it.

K
F
A
G
G
O
T
?

Helm and orb wise? I've got a max mag amp rune, whereas you don't even have one to begin with. Not only that, but my Lapis is +11, same as a +9 Topaz. You're going to say your DPS is higher than mine because you think you can bring Pluma down quicker than me only going off of my video where I didn't even use 50 mag atks, and used evasions to be on the safe side as to where you used 50 magics and no evasions at all? Boy, that makes total sense. When soloing, the speed of the solo depends on the amount of crits, I can solo a Quad in 2 bars with 5 seconds left, or I could be 5 seconds away from 2 baring it, apparently something you can't really comprehend. Sorry but the day a 7/34 helm and lapis with a 7 amp forc orb out-dps's a 7/40 helm and a +11 40 dmg osm with a 10/8 +11 forc is the day pigs fly.

WIpwns
10-01-2010, 07:09 PM
Spur I don't see how you think you have more DPS than I do, are you that retarded or what?

You think your 7/34 orb and helm have higher dps than me? That'll be the day, got. Still waiting for your 2 bar Quad and 1 bar Tank videos, kid.
lol

obviously i have edc/sc/met all at 20. after the patch came out i didnt even need to think lvl 20 met right away
i also fail w/o them at lvl 20, i wont be able to 4 hit wa with lvl 18 or lower

Rage
10-01-2010, 07:16 PM
is the day pigs fly.

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/5177/page19blogentry37summar.jpg (http://img338.imageshack.us/i/page19blogentry37summar.jpg/)

rectumcanal
10-01-2010, 07:36 PM
why are their tails like that?

Spur
10-01-2010, 07:40 PM
Sorry but the day a 7/34 helm and lapis with a 7 amp forc orb out-dps's a 7/40 helm and a +11 40 dmg osm with a 10/8 +11 forc is the day pigs fly.

i care less if u like to choose and select a few pieces of gear and compare. fact is i can get pluma lower than u in 1 bm2+aura end of story come back when u have a better vid

otice1
10-01-2010, 07:43 PM
i care less if u like to choose and select a few pieces of gear and compare. fact is i can get pluma lower than u in 1 bm2+aura end of story come back when u have a better vid

lol no you can't. Post a solo vid that you fraps yourself; I'd like to see your terrible damage. This game is based 100% off numbers and calculations. You have less rate, magic, and crit damage than Matri, therefore it is impossible to have greater dps than him.

Spur
10-01-2010, 07:46 PM
lol no you can't. Post a solo vid that you fraps yourself; I'd like to see your terrible damage. This game is based 100% off numbers and calculations. You have less rate, magic, and crit damage than Matri, therefore it is impossible to have greater dps than him.

then u better go lvl ure edc/sc/met to 20 and try again. remember wat happened the last time that "word" was mentioned about lvl 6 CA

otice1
10-01-2010, 07:57 PM
you're a mfs, your opinion is irrelevant

Being an mfs means the game changes its damage calculation system for you. Good one !

Spur
10-01-2010, 08:06 PM
Being an mfs means the game changes its damage calculation system for you. Good one !

no but it surely means u have no idea how WI bm2 works so y are u here?

otice1
10-01-2010, 08:11 PM
no but it surely means u have no idea how WI bm2 works so y are u here?

Ok I'm going to let you finish talking but I'd like you to know what you just said was completely retarded.

Matrimoney
10-01-2010, 08:41 PM
k
f
a
g
g
o
t
?

Jesus Christ you're a sped. The video was the ONLY attempt at a Pluma solo AFTER the update, comprende???

Matrimoney
10-01-2010, 08:43 PM
no but it surely means u have no idea how WI bm2 works so y are u here?

he knows about wi bm2 just like i know about other classes bm2, are you that ignorant to say just because he isnt a wi he doesnt know about wi bm2? im a wi yet i know about every other classes bm2, wheres your logic there?

Spur
10-01-2010, 09:11 PM
he knows about wi bm2 just like i know about other classes bm2, are you that ignorant to say just because he isnt a wi he doesnt know about wi bm2? im a wi yet i know about every other classes bm2, wheres your logic there?

knowing a bm2 doesnt mean u can utilize its potential. absolutely no hands on experience and hes gonna tell me my lvl 20s cant out dps ure lvl 9s

LastHour
10-01-2010, 09:12 PM
lol just cause u guys are on every hour of the day doesnt mean im ignoring ure posts and im not gonna quote that 10paragraph essay. maximum dps is exactly wat im talking about and people on venus is a perfect example. everyone on venus prides on out gearing / outdpsing me yet my bm2 can get pluma lower than any of them care to explain y?

Doesn't matter in comparing DPS to others, because you can compare your DPS against yourself with the different setups which is the real importance. Above all the whole point with all this debate would to be to help yourself, not everyone else. Comparing to others is just going to add even more variables making it impossible to sort out.

In the end you shouldn't use your vid against matris or raps or anyones as evidence of your skill levels, theres too many diff factors going on. The question should be, if I changed skill builds, could I get pluma down even further in 1 bm than before? Several tests would be necessary for a decent comparison.

Your comfortable with your play style and ultimately its up to preference so you probably don't care. Just saying that so you don't keep incorrectly using the term maximum dps.

Spur
10-02-2010, 07:11 AM
Just saying that so you don't keep incorrectly using the term maximum dps.

u dont have to go thru 3 paragraphs to state one simple point. all u gotta say is Spur ure wrong. i went ahead and did all my calculations last night cause Venus and EU seems to be so against lvl 20s and i have yet to see how lvl 9s will improve my dps. i took a nice and simple method and dps wise they are pretty equal.

meteor at lvl 20 has a cooldown of 14.4sec so thats the time frame well use cause thats all it comes down to, tho if i went for the full 90sec it would come out to my favor cause the last 4sec would get me an extra sc/met/edc/af and bm would end. during bm2 14.4sec can let u cast up to 16skills. heres how it would look like lvl 9s vs lvl 20s

space+met+edc+af+lc+hail+sc+fc x2 for a lvl 9 user and itll keep repeating if the times are extended
space+met+edc+af+lc+hail+sc+fc+ac+tl+fl+lc+al+hail +fc+sc and this will repeat for me

considering ure lc/hail/sc/fc are all lvl 20 those can cancel each other out then well be left with this
space+met+edc+af+space+met+edc+af vs my
space+met+edc+af+ac+tl+fl+al

4211+4158+4068+3688+4211+4158+4068+3688=32250
5013+4894+4838+4242+3546+3438+3211+3186=32368

not only does mine have higher dps tho its barely noticible at all, even if lvl 9 had higher dps theyll fail in almost every other aspect of the game. b4 u guys go and argue about every single matter go and actually calculate things so u dont feel stupid in the end when ure proven wrong.

Matrimoney
10-02-2010, 10:06 AM
u dont have to go thru 3 paragraphs to state one simple point. all u gotta say is Spur ure wrong. i went ahead and did all my calculations last night cause Venus and EU seems to be so against lvl 20s and i have yet to see how lvl 9s will improve my dps. i took a nice and simple method and dps wise they are pretty equal.

meteor at lvl 20 has a cooldown of 14.4sec so thats the time frame well use cause thats all it comes down to, tho if i went for the full 90sec it would come out to my favor cause the last 4sec would get me an extra sc/met/edc/af and bm would end. during bm2 14.4sec can let u cast up to 16skills. heres how it would look like lvl 9s vs lvl 20s

space+met+edc+af+lc+hail+sc+fc x2 for a lvl 9 user and itll keep repeating if the times are extended
space+met+edc+af+lc+hail+sc+fc+ac+tl+fl+lc+al+hail +fc+sc and this will repeat for me

considering ure lc/hail/sc/fc are all lvl 20 those can cancel each other out then well be left with this
space+met+edc+af+space+met+edc+af vs my
space+met+edc+af+ac+tl+fl+al

4211+4158+4068+3688+4211+4158+4068+3688=32250
5013+4894+4838+4242+3546+3438+3211+3186=32368

not only does mine have higher dps tho its barely noticible at all, even if lvl 9 had higher dps theyll fail in almost every other aspect of the game. b4 u guys go and argue about every single matter go and actually calculate things so u dont feel stupid in the end when ure proven wrong.

the whole thread wasnt about ONLY lvl 9 skills, it was about 9's 12's and 15's, so before you go to extremes of both ends and compare ALL lvl 20's to ALL lvl 9's why don't you take into considerating that some are 9 and some are 12/15? there is no real way to actually tell which is better, because it depends on your gear, and just because a skill cools doesnt mean it can be casted right away.

in other words, how do you know you don't have to wait an extra 1.5 seconds to cast your space/met/edc skill because they finished cooling right as you casted another set of lower hitting skills? the same can be said for the lvl 9 bar, but i doubt it happens as often because of quicker cd's, which in turn could decrease the amount of times you cast your hard hitters in bm2

stop trying to justify your garbage lvl 20 only bm2 bar

Matrimoney
10-02-2010, 10:28 AM
btw i like how youre comparing the first set of skills dmg in your bm2 bar,

are you trying to say you can cast space+met+edc+af+ac+tl+fl+al in the exact same order over and over? lol no, cuz ur a retard and didnt factor in high cooldowns in throughout bm2, a lvl 20 meteor can be cast 6 times your bm2 without aura, whereas a lvl 9 meteor would be able to cast 16 times during your bm2. crunch hypothetical numbers all u want, i know going from 18 to 9 and 12 has increased my DPS, your ego is too big to let this go, so carry on.

Spur
10-02-2010, 11:31 AM
btw i like how youre comparing the first set of skills dmg in your bm2 bar,

are you trying to say you can cast space+met+edc+af+ac+tl+fl+al in the exact same order over and over? lol no, cuz ur a retard and didnt factor in high cooldowns in throughout bm2, a lvl 20 meteor can be cast 6 times your bm2 without aura, whereas a lvl 9 meteor would be able to cast 16 times during your bm2. crunch hypothetical numbers all u want, i know going from 18 to 9 and 12 has increased my DPS, your ego is too big to let this go, so carry on.

are u stupid? actually nvm that was a stupid question. meteors cooldown is the longest which is 14.4sec so if it has cooled down it would obviously be cast next.

lolwut
10-02-2010, 11:53 AM
yes?

iSeeYou123
10-02-2010, 01:21 PM
u dont have to go thru 3 paragraphs to state one simple point. all u gotta say is Spur ure wrong.
not only does mine have higher dps tho its barely noticible at all, even if lvl 9 had higher dps theyll fail in almost every other aspect of the game. b4 u guys go and argue about every single matter go and actually calculate things so u dont feel stupid in the end when ure proven wrong.

Spur just shut u up Lasthour...i bet Lasthour is writing rough draft to get back at Spur

Matrimoney
10-02-2010, 02:08 PM
are u stupid? actually nvm that was a stupid question. meteors cooldown is the longest which is 14.4sec so if it has cooled down it would obviously be cast next.

Apparently you know nothing about WI BM2? If you cast two skills while in BM2 and Meteor cools right as those skills are cast, you'll be waiting the 1.74 or so seconds for the skills to be done casting before Meteor is casted, making the CD even longer.

You're the only retard here, which has been proven many times before. If you'd like me to explain how much of a retard you are, then just let me know, it's not really hard to point out where you're wrong since it occurs in almost every one of your posts.

Eurus
10-02-2010, 02:13 PM
Apparently you know nothing about WI BM2? If you cast two skills while in BM2 and Meteor cools right as those skills are cast, you'll be waiting the 1.74 or so seconds for the skills to be done casting before Meteor is casted, making the CD even longer.

You're the only retard here, which has been proven many times before. If you'd like me to explain how much of a retard you are, then just let me know, it's not really hard to point out where you're wrong since it occurs in almost every one of your posts.

+ 1/2 for the grammar

WIpwns
10-02-2010, 03:12 PM
Spur just shut u up brah...better go write a rough draft then submit your essay

spur isnt lasthour...
lasthour is another eu player that knows 5 times about this game than u

iSeeYou123
10-02-2010, 03:19 PM
spur isnt lasthour...
lasthour is another eu player that knows 5 times about this game than me

i never said spur was lasthour fail ass

chickenpotpie
10-02-2010, 04:32 PM
spur isnt lasthour...
lasthour is another eu player that knows 5 times about this game than u

is that why spur can do the thing he does in game, while lasthour writes paragraphs?

WIpwns
10-02-2010, 04:47 PM
i never said spur was lasthour fail ass

u said
"spur shut up... i dont want to see any of ur essays"
then u edited it to
"Spur just shut u up Lasthour...i bet Lasthour is writing rough draft to get back at Spur"

obvious troll is obvious
learn2english be4 u post please

LastHour
10-02-2010, 09:03 PM
I'm going to play devils-advocate against my better judgment and try to justify your 20 edc/sc anyway to save you some dignity here since you seem quite proud. Wiz is a traditionally a weak PvP char for reasons we all know, the biggest concern of which is low hp. In most TG cases and especially without the old bringer system, it doesn't take much to down a wiz or get them to run to heal. People don't typically let you sit back and DPS combo whether bm2, bm1, aura or w/e. That being said, you may only get off a single string of attacks before a mob chops off your hp in an instant or a hard hitting FS finisher halves your hp. If your only going to get off only a single string of attacks, they may as well hit as hard as they can. The cool doesn't matter since almost regardless of level they will all be cooled again by the time you heal and get back to the combat zone. Also for PvP you only ever get off a single string of attacks [against end-game opponents] and will probably never reuse a even 12 edc in a single PvP match. So for the avid pvper/TGer, it may be beneficial to go with high skill levels, its largely a judgment call on the average time you can spend fighting before running to heal [varies from player to player based on how other players KOS them, their gear, titles, etc]

Maybe instead of trying to backtrack and fail your defense of the pve bm2 argument you could've mentioned this, which places the whole bm2 argument up to pve or pvp preference. Anyone can go back unless you've edited it out already of how you've backtracked several times with lances, then cannons, etc. Know when to call it quits.

Beat you to the punch on that one spur, believe it or not I have in game experience too. I already tried to justify your level 20 skills and said the exact same thing you did on it at the end of your last post. Instead of using that though like I said, you just can't admit you were wrong and refuse to accept the facts so you continue to get slammed on your math and claims of max DPS. Now I'll post evidence as to why you failed to prove you also achieve maximum dps [seriously, admit your mistake here and move on] I took your bm2 build and it doesn't cycle as cleanly as you stated, and in fact bm2 doesn't cycle at all under auto attack [among all skills]. The lvl 20s skills cycle but everything after changes, and in the lower skill build the first 3 skills don't even repeat in order every time you use the first. This is the actual in game testing of using one of my bm2 builds with your stats [1420 m. atk 63 amp in bm2+aura roughly] against your bm2 build. I recorded videos and wrote down every cast that was used over 100 skills [one 90 second BM] The lower level skill got off 2 more casts actually so to make it fair I did take the last two out, putting both at 100 skill uses to get their frequency.

Lower level skills [The ( ) are the power of each skill]:
12 EDC (4017.6) - 13
12 SC (4095.6) - 10
18 meteorite (4216.1) - 9
15 AF (3816.4) - 10
20 Light C.(3854.2) - 12
20 Stone C. (3791.9) - 12
20 Hail Storm (3826.1)- 10
19 Vacuum (3649.6) - 9
20 Fire C. (3676.3) - 8
20 Aqua C. (3668.1) - 7
Total power [number in ( ) when using a skill] - 387241.4
http://img339.imageshack.us/f/wizbm2.jpg/

All Level 20 skills:
20 sc (4423.6) - 6
20 meteor (4363.1) - 6
20 edc (4333.6) - 6
20 AF (4041.4) - 7
20 Light (3854.2) - 11
20 Hail (3826.1) - 10
20 Stone (3791.9) - 11
20 Fire C (3676.3) - 11
20 Aqua C (3668.1) - 9
20 Terra L (3607.5) - 9
20 Fire L (3494.3) - 7
20 Aqua L (3481.4) - 5
20 Freeze L (3369.5) - 2
Total Power: 383905.5
http://img28.imageshack.us/f/wizbm22.jpg/

Obviously yours were in the correct power order since mines not meant for quite your stats, so correcting it would increase the difference of 3335.9 power. Obviously this sounds like an insanely small difference that can be ignored, however this is power, not damage. I left it at its basic terms since that seems to be all you understand. Regardless of your arguments, with your own stats, your not even achieving max power (Sad with all level 20 skills isn't it?). Power is not damage nor DPS like I said, keep in mind all those extra EDC/SC/Meteors are going to be critting a lot harder than the skills you're stuck using.

*If I were bother to convert this into total damage the difference would probably be around 25k damage, which definitely can be a difference maker in a BM. This is only 1 BM, and it would add up in the course of a dungeon run or boss fight requiring multiple BMs. This is because power is only the first factor of determining damage, foregoing frequency of high level skills means all that critical damage you have makes you suffer more because of the loss of using lvl 20 cannons to GM/Comp/Trans. You said yourself EDC can be like 8k + a 4k cannon or you can go lower level skills for more 5k+6k type stuff. Well turns out, your going to be looking at 4k + 4k a lot more often and pass up the opportunity of the 5k + 6k and above range more often.*

Conclusion: Your level 20 skill build ends up spending 79% of its time [6 SC + 6 Meteor + 6 EDC = 21/100] fighting in low to mid power ranges while the lower level skill spends much more time [only 68% at lower-mid ranges] fighting at higher power ranges. In this, you fail to achieve maximum power output, total damage, and average DPS. DPS is made from frequency, damage and time, which the level 20 skills lack [frequency].

Perhaps if you spent as much time paying attention in school as you did in TG, you might've learned something or defended yourself better here.

@Iseeyou: Maybe if you thought for yourself more often instead of letting spur do it for you, then you wouldn't have to wait for him to post bad arguments to try and look cool. Also, just because I decided to watch some college football instead of debate on the forums doesn't mean I was owned.

Havoc
10-02-2010, 09:10 PM
@Iseeyou: Maybe if you thought for yourself more often instead of letting spur do it for you, then you wouldn't have to wait for him to post bad arguments to try and look cool. Also, just because I decided to watch some college football instead of debate on the forums doesn't mean I was owned.amen to that, there were good games today. florida was shown how overrated they are, and oregon game was real fun to watch.

Matrimoney
10-02-2010, 09:40 PM
Beat you to the punch on that one spur, believe it or not I have in game experience too. I already tried to justify your level 20 skills and said the exact same thing you did on it at the end of your last post. Instead of using that though like I said, you just can't admit you were wrong and refuse to accept the facts so you continue to get slammed on your math and claims of max DPS. Now I'll post evidence as to why you failed to prove you also achieve maximum dps [seriously, admit your mistake here and move on] I took your bm2 build and it doesn't cycle as cleanly as you stated, and in fact bm2 doesn't cycle at all under auto attack [among all skills]. The lvl 20s skills cycle but everything after changes, and in the lower skill build the first 3 skills don't even repeat in order every time you use the first. This is the actual in game testing of using one of my bm2 builds with your stats [1420 m. atk 63 amp in bm2+aura roughly] against your bm2 build. I recorded videos and wrote down every cast that was used over 100 skills [one 90 second BM] The lower level skill got off 2 more casts actually so to make it fair I did take the last two out, putting both at 100 skill uses to get their frequency.

Lower level skills [The ( ) are the power of each skill]:
12 EDC (4017.6) - 13
12 SC (4095.6) - 10
18 meteorite (4216.1) - 9
15 AF (3816.4) - 10
20 Light C.(3854.2) - 12
20 Stone C. (3791.9) - 12
20 Hail Storm (3826.1)- 10
19 Vacuum (3649.6) - 9
20 Fire C. (3676.3) - 8
20 Aqua C. (3668.1) - 7
Total power [number in ( ) when using a skill] - 387241.4
http://img339.imageshack.us/f/wizbm2.jpg/

All Level 20 skills:
20 sc (4423.6) - 6
20 meteor (4363.1) - 6
20 edc (4333.6) - 6
20 AF (4041.4) - 7
20 Light (3854.2) - 11
20 Hail (3826.1) - 10
20 Stone (3791.9) - 11
20 Fire C (3676.3) - 11
20 Aqua C (3668.1) - 9
20 Terra L (3607.5) - 9
20 Fire L (3494.3) - 7
20 Aqua L (3481.4) - 5
20 Freeze L (3369.5) - 2
Total Power: 383905.5
http://img28.imageshack.us/f/wizbm22.jpg/

Obviously yours were in the correct power order since mines not meant for quite your stats, so correcting it would increase the difference of 3335.9 power. Obviously this sounds like an insanely small difference that can be ignored, however this is power, not damage. I left it at its basic terms since that seems to be all you understand. Regardless of your arguments, with your own stats, your not even achieving max power (Sad with all level 20 skills isn't it?). Power is not damage nor DPS like I said, keep in mind all those extra EDC/SC/Meteors are going to be critting a lot harder than the skills you're stuck using.

*If I were bother to convert this into total damage the difference would probably be around 25k damage, which definitely can be a difference maker in a BM. This is only 1 BM, and it would add up in the course of a dungeon run or boss fight requiring multiple BMs. This is because power is only the first factor of determining damage, foregoing frequency of high level skills means all that critical damage you have makes you suffer more because of the loss of using lvl 20 cannons to GM/Comp/Trans. You said yourself EDC can be like 8k + a 4k cannon or you can go lower level skills for more 5k+6k type stuff. Well turns out, your going to be looking at 4k + 4k a lot more often and pass up the opportunity of the 5k + 6k and above range more often.*

Conclusion: Your level 20 skill build ends up spending 79% of its time [6 SC + 6 Meteor + 6 EDC = 21/100] fighting in low to mid power ranges while the lower level skill spends much more time [only 68% at lower-mid ranges] fighting at higher power ranges. In this, you fail to achieve maximum power output, total damage, and average DPS. DPS is made from frequency, damage and time, which the level 20 skills lack [frequency].

Perhaps if you spent as much time paying attention in school as you did in TG, you might've learned something or defended yourself better here.

@Iseeyou: Maybe if you thought for yourself more often instead of letting spur do it for you, then you wouldn't have to wait for him to post bad arguments to try and look cool. Also, just because I decided to watch some college football instead of debate on the forums doesn't mean I was owned.

Checkmate Spur.

He can't wrap his head around the concept you're throwing at him, trust me....been there done that, the kids stubborn and won't ever admit defeat, even when up against solid evidence.

Spur
10-02-2010, 09:51 PM
Lower level skills [The ( ) are the power of each skill]:
12 EDC (4017.6) - 13
12 SC (4095.6) - 10
18 meteorite (4216.1) - 9
15 AF (3816.4) - 10
20 Light C.(3854.2) - 12
20 Stone C. (3791.9) - 12
20 Hail Storm (3826.1)- 10
19 Vacuum (3649.6) - 9
20 Fire C. (3676.3) - 8
20 Aqua C. (3668.1) - 7
Total power [number in ( ) when using a skill] - 387241.4

All Level 20 skills:
20 sc (4423.6) - 6
20 meteor (4363.1) - 6
20 edc (4333.6) - 6
20 AF (4041.4) - 7
20 Light (3854.2) - 11
20 Hail (3826.1) - 10
20 Stone (3791.9) - 11
20 Fire C (3676.3) - 11
20 Aqua C (3668.1) - 9
20 Terra L (3607.5) - 9
20 Fire L (3494.3) - 7
20 Aqua L (3481.4) - 5
20 Freeze L (3369.5) - 2
Total Power: 383905.5


Perhaps if you spent as much time paying attention in school as you did in TG, you might've learned something or defended yourself better here.


i dont need to know how to defend myself as long as im right. u went thru all that trouble to beat it by 3k. i stated so many times i only have 12 skills in my bm2 bar, where do u get freezing lance from? i also went and tested a full bm2 and lightning cannon was cast 12 times not 11. from that 1 skill alone not even counting the other time freezing lance was used that already more than made up the 3k go back to math class.

Romp
10-02-2010, 09:56 PM
hi

i > than u

LastHour
10-02-2010, 10:12 PM
i dont need to know how to defend myself as long as im right. u went thru all that trouble to beat it by 3k. i stated so many times i only have 12 skills in my bm2 bar, where do u get freezing lance from? i also went and tested a full bm2 and lightning cannon was cast 12 times not 11. from that 1 skill alone not even counting the other time freezing lance was used that already more than made up the 3k go back to math class.

I had to use 13 instead of 12 because using auto attack your bm2 build did not hold up. Twice there was an instant where lightning C was solo casted without a skill, using the 12 skills you gave me, so I went to the next skill and paired it up with LC. If your not auto attacking then your not attacking as fast as possible. If you want me to go and redo the skills for your bm2 build, show me a vid on a dummy of you auto attacking for an entire bm2 so maybe we can continue to below.

I also said I didn't even bother putting my bm2 build in the proper order to accomodate your stats, fixing the order alone would boost mine much farther than another LC use, actually creating a bigger difference than before. I didn't even have to use the proper order [yours were in perfect order since you know your stats] to beat it in the original test. I could gain possibly another 3k alone just by fixing the order.

Yet again you forget the basic principles applied to this argument. The gain from using LC 12 times instead of 11 is not the power of the skill, it is the difference in power from the skill it would replace, maybe earning you up to 1000 from both uses FL was used. So if we fix this, then maybe I gain 3k more power and you gain 1k, so gz on that.

I kept it in power so hopefully you could understand since that is all you ever seem to look for. As I said, power is not damage. I'd be using higher damage skills more often making better use of my critical damage than using lower level skills.

Spur
10-02-2010, 10:45 PM
I had to use 13 instead of 12 because using auto attack your bm2 build did not hold up. Twice there was an instant where lightning C was solo casted without a skill, using the 12 skills you gave me, so I went to the next skill and paired it up with LC. If your not auto attacking then your not attacking as fast as possible. If you want me to go and redo the skills for your bm2 build, show me a vid on a dummy of you auto attacking for an entire bm2 so maybe we can continue to below.

I also said I didn't even bother putting my bm2 build in the proper order to accomodate your stats, fixing the order alone would boost mine much farther than another LC use, actually creating a bigger difference than before. I didn't even have to use the proper order [yours were in perfect order since you know your stats] to beat it in the original test. I could gain possibly another 3k alone just by fixing the order.

Yet again you forget the basic principles applied to this argument. The gain from using LC 12 times instead of 11 is not the power of the skill, it is the difference in power from the skill it would replace, maybe earning you up to 1000 from both uses FL was used. So if we fix this, then maybe I gain 3k more power and you gain 1k, so gz on that.

I kept it in power so hopefully you could understand since that is all you ever seem to look for. As I said, power is not damage. I'd be using higher damage skills more often making better use of my critical damage than using lower level skills.

do a full calculation then come back. i dont wanna hear ure theories... just by the first list of spells i can already tell ure biased. 12 lcs on ures but 11 lcs on mine yet they got the same cooldown. u got vacuum sneaked in on ures yet i dont have vacuum at all. rearrange it all u like and put plumas def to the test.

rate is 54
cd is 175

u guys have no idea how much dmg ure losing from not maxing out met and edc. these are 2 of ure highest dps skill in general with a big aoe by not maxing them ure losing another 300damage every 14sec in combo per mob it hits. it doesnt take a math genius to realize maxing these 2 are common sense for a wiz. stunlock can be ure only excuse, dps is not.

LastHour
10-02-2010, 11:27 PM
space+met+edc+af+lc+hail+sc+fc+ac+tl+fl+lc+al+hail +fc+sc and this will repeat for me


Tell me where you see vac in here ^. I did exactly what you gave me, don't blame me for your own failure to properly write your own build. I'll redo the test and my own as well [maybe with 20 vac since 19 is as good as aqua basically] Your just going to get the same results when I fix my own order to properly account for power from highest to lowest. Another skill off these would also mean 13, which you previously criticized me for using.


do a full calculation then come back. i dont wanna hear ure theories... just by the first list of spells i can already tell ure biased. 12 lcs on ures but 11 lcs on mine yet they got the same cooldown. u got vacuum sneaked in on ures yet i dont have vacuum at all. rearrange it all u like and put plumas def to the test.

rate is 54
cd is 175

u guys have no idea how much dmg ure losing from not maxing out met and edc. these are 2 of ure highest dps skill in general with a big aoe by not maxing them ure losing another 300damage every 14sec in combo per mob it hits. it doesnt take a math genius to realize maxing these 2 are common sense for a wiz. stunlock can be ure only excuse, dps is not.

If we're losing SO much damage from EDC and Met not being maxed, then how come your not using lower skill levels to get more damage out of them since you would be losing SO much damage using those weak skills? You know, the ones your using 80% of your bm2. Love the logic, "They do more damage so lets use them less often".

Math genius? [not that you implied you were, but bringing up the topic is ironic] Funny you should mention that, your the only one who hasn't put up a proper argument with numbers. Ratza already went and proved the whole damage thing pages back, but if you insist I re-invent the wheel doing it for the entire bm2 instead, would you agree to shut up if it doesn't come out in your favor? I'd be willing to bet no.

All the justice in your level 20 skills lies in arguing for PvP use, but you refuse to simply state that your preference is PvP, thus the best build for you. Instead, you're too much of a narcissist to admit when you're wrong, shift arguments to PvP, or to gracefully bow out of the thread. Ratza and myself would've never entered the thread if you didn't go off misusing terms and advertising how your build > all else simply on the contexts that "I'm Spur so I'm right".

viciouscockfight
10-03-2010, 12:01 AM
Spur, here's something for you.


"I'm Spur so I'm right".

This is basically the backbone of all your arguements. Obviously it's not something you'll ever admit to, though. I know you think that just because you were zodi's little "calculator" back in the day, and follow what he did like it's your life's mission since you were so inseparable from his genetalia at the time. So, any little compliment he gave you was like a hand given gift straight from god. Which obviously was, "2nd best wiz." After he left for Aion way back, you just automatically felt the urge to go about thinking you're god's gift to the world of Cabal and WI's since there was nobody to keep you in check like he did. I understand that, I really do. Him leaving you like a 2 dollar hooker for Aion left you heartbroken. Seriously though, just learn you're not always right and admit that your level 20 EDC/SC works for your own playstyle(PVP), but isn't right for everyone and certainly not the best option if you're going for optimal DPS while in BM2.


Also, you should listen on how to get the best dps for your bm2, you'll need it for your door farming.

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2656/cabalver107100531212400.jpg

What happened to the, "if there isnt 4-5 people next to you killing a guard/tower/door, ure farming" crap that you used to say on OGP's forum?

<3

Spur
10-03-2010, 06:28 AM
Tell me where you see vac in here ^. I did exactly what you gave me, don't blame me for your own failure to properly write your own build. I'll redo the test and my own as well [maybe with 20 vac since 19 is as good as aqua basically] Your just going to get the same results when I fix my own order to properly account for power from highest to lowest. Another skill off these would also mean 13, which you previously criticized me for using.



If we're losing SO much damage from EDC and Met not being maxed, then how come your not using lower skill levels to get more damage out of them since you would be losing SO much damage using those weak skills? You know, the ones your using 80% of your bm2. Love the logic, "They do more damage so lets use them less often".

Math genius? [not that you implied you were, but bringing up the topic is ironic] Funny you should mention that, your the only one who hasn't put up a proper argument with numbers. Ratza already went and proved the whole damage thing pages back, but if you insist I re-invent the wheel doing it for the entire bm2 instead, would you agree to shut up if it doesn't come out in your favor? I'd be willing to bet no.

All the justice in your level 20 skills lies in arguing for PvP use, but you refuse to simply state that your preference is PvP, thus the best build for you. Instead, you're too much of a narcissist to admit when you're wrong, shift arguments to PvP, or to gracefully bow out of the thread. Ratza and myself would've never entered the thread if you didn't go off misusing terms and advertising how your build > all else simply on the contexts that "I'm Spur so I'm right".

i dont need to argue for pvp or nw cause theres nuthin to argue about over there. no one in their right mind can tell me lvl 20 isnt better for those 2. arguing for pve is way better cause theres actually gonna be a debate about it.

if u really wanna get so detailed about pve i can prove u wrong once and for all and we can all leave. since u talked about a dungeon lets go on about one. u bm2+aura for 90sec then wat do u do for the next 5minutes? o right u combo. in combo my sc and edc out damage u by 400each and met by 200 and af by 300. guess wat that 1300dmg per rotation of 15sec. 5min = 20 rotations or 26000dmg and since ure gonna be avg 5 mobs on ure aoes thats 130000 dmg u lose every 5min cause ure skills arent lvl 20. please tell me u got sumthing to compensate 130k dmg please

Rage
10-03-2010, 07:19 AM
i dont need to argue for pvp or nw cause theres nuthin to argue about over there. no one in their right mind can tell me lvl 20 isnt better for those 2. arguing for pve is way better cause theres actually gonna be a debate about it.

if u really wanna get so detailed about pve i can prove u wrong once and for all and we can all leave. since u talked about a dungeon lets go on about one. u bm2+aura for 90sec then wat do u do for the next 5minutes? o right u combo. in combo my sc and edc out damage u by 400each and met by 200 and af by 300. guess wat that 1300dmg per rotation of 15sec. 5min = 20 rotations or 26000dmg and since ure gonna be avg 5 mobs on ure aoes thats 130000 dmg u lose every 5min cause ure skills arent lvl 20. please tell me u got sumthing to compensate 130k dmg please

i wasn't aware that cool downs didn't apply to combo.

lolwut
10-03-2010, 07:51 AM
KR

ihottiewitch
10-03-2010, 08:00 AM
KAKAKAKAKAKa!

Yuz all need some chill pillz. Sorry but NA < Euro < Thailand.


KR

Don't state these comments here please.

If you like KR or EU or Thai so much, you can quit here and go there to play.

DoItOver
10-03-2010, 08:06 AM
Don't state these comments here please.

If you like KR or EU or Thai so much, you can quit here and go there to play.

kakakakakaka!
JuMadz

LastHour
10-03-2010, 09:21 AM
i dont need to argue for pvp or nw cause theres nuthin to argue about over there. no one in their right mind can tell me lvl 20 isnt better for those 2. arguing for pve is way better cause theres actually gonna be a debate about it.

if u really wanna get so detailed about pve i can prove u wrong once and for all and we can all leave. since u talked about a dungeon lets go on about one. u bm2+aura for 90sec then wat do u do for the next 5minutes? o right u combo. in combo my sc and edc out damage u by 400each and met by 200 and af by 300. guess wat that 1300dmg per rotation of 15sec. 5min = 20 rotations or 26000dmg and since ure gonna be avg 5 mobs on ure aoes thats 130000 dmg u lose every 5min cause ure skills arent lvl 20. please tell me u got sumthing to compensate 130k dmg please

Much like there isn't much PvP debate, there's not much PvE debate. You failed to realize one thing that deserves a giant facepalm for this argument, out of bm2 skills do not have the same cast times anymore. AF in combo = DPS? Lol wut. SC/AF are terrible DPS in combo and I would think any wiz that even hits 140 would at least know that. EDC/Meteorite can be better DPS than some skills, but most lances are still better off in terms of dps. I use 18 meteorite, so if I need dps or aoe I'll throw a meteorite in and get more rotations out of it with slightly less damage, evening it out a bit.

Also, you don't typically fight many bosses outside of bm. Unless you plan to go tanking ft2 bosses or CA6 w/o bm, then the argument doesn't even matter if it were right. Though idk, maybe your epic HP can prove me wrong about how even non-bm you > end-game PvE. For mobs in dungeons, why would I even care? I'll trade killing the boss faster for killing the mobs faster any day of the week. They die so fast anyway you could even use your terrible dpsers with af/sc and kill them. They have low hp and are not really a big part of passing any dungeon. Bosses are whats going to matter so getting the most out of BM is whats important, especially for those with worse gear than you.

I'll redo the tests when I feel up to it, and that would probably be my last post here in this thread. Ratza and I have virtually proved your PvE argument wrong in every aspect with our tests until now, you have failed to provide any sufficient data that fairly takes all the variables into account. At this point the facts and data are speaking for themselves, so I'll just let the forum trolls go to work if you want to keep being in denial on this matter or let you feel that you've won the argument just because you'll get the last word. Debating with you at that point would be senseless. Ratza got out of the thread because he spoke the objective truth and had nothing more to say in a hopeless debate with you. I feel much the same way.

Spur
10-03-2010, 09:40 AM
Much like there isn't much PvP debate, there's not much PvE debate. You failed to realize one thing that deserves a giant facepalm for this argument, out of bm2 skills do not have the same cast times anymore. AF in combo = DPS? Lol wut. SC/AF are terrible DPS in combo and I would think any wiz that even hits 140 would at least know that. EDC/Meteorite can be better DPS than some skills, but most lances are still better off in terms of dps. I use 18 meteorite, so if I need dps or aoe I'll throw a meteorite in and get more rotations out of it with slightly less damage, evening it out a bit.

Also, you don't typically fight many bosses outside of bm. Unless you plan to go tanking ft2 bosses or CA6 w/o bm, then the argument doesn't even matter if it were right. Though idk, maybe your epic HP can prove me wrong about how even non-bm you > end-game PvE. For mobs in dungeons, why would I even care? I'll trade killing the boss faster for killing the mobs faster any day of the week. They die so fast anyway you could even use your terrible dpsers with af/sc and kill them. They have low hp and are not really a big part of passing any dungeon. Bosses are whats going to matter so getting the most out of BM is whats important, especially for those with worse gear than you.

I'll redo the tests when I feel up to it, and that would probably be my last post here in this thread. Ratza and I have virtually proved your PvE argument wrong in every aspect with our tests until now, you have failed to provide any sufficient data that fairly takes all the variables into account. At this point the facts and data are speaking for themselves, so I'll just let the forum trolls go to work if you want to keep being in denial on this matter or let you feel that you've won the argument just because you'll get the last word. Debating with you at that point would be senseless. Ratza got out of the thread because he spoke the objective truth and had nothing more to say in a hopeless debate with you. I feel much the same way.

i dont see a point in arguing with u either. ure bringing so many diff variables into this calculation that the original stats arent even the same anymore. ure now talking about CA6 and FT2? lol are u planning to solo those? if not then wouldnt there be fury + mana condense + bless + panic + lower def? and wat about the 30sec of amp buff in the beginning? these all favor my lance/cannons over ure edc/sc/met? u havent thought about that have u. the more matk i get the more the calculation favor my small skills.

ratza left in the words of the trolls cause he got nuthin left to say and ure gonna leave cause of the same reason. isnt that wat all the trolls say?

Matrimoney
10-03-2010, 01:48 PM
i dont see a point in arguing with u either. ure bringing so many diff variables into this calculation that the original stats arent even the same anymore. ure now talking about CA6 and FT2? lol are u planning to solo those? if not then wouldnt there be fury + mana condense + bless + panic + lower def? and wat about the 30sec of amp buff in the beginning? these all favor my lance/cannons over ure edc/sc/met? u havent thought about that have u. the more matk i get the more the calculation favor my small skills.

ratza left in the words of the trolls cause he got nuthin left to say and ure gonna leave cause of the same reason. isnt that wat all the trolls say?


Are you serious? You're pretty desperate right not to redeem yourself aren't you? If you're getting Fury/MC/Bless and PC a boss, you're getting a dmg boost on every single skill. I'm pretty certain if you PC/HL a boss and use the lvl 9/12 BM2 bar, the debuffs will be in favor of EDC/SC/Meteor because they have more potential dmg output with 6xx+ add attack and 70+ amp as opposed to 15x add attack and 85 amp.

Have you forgotten the 25% M.amp buff as well? That also favors the hard hitters....you know...the ones you'll only be able to get 2-3 times while in BM2+Aura(40+ seconds)+25% amp buff as opposed to over 8 times with lvl 9's and 12's

In other words, when you PC/HL with full party buffs, you get more added dmg on EDC/MET/SC because of their high dmg output already. Keep rocking your lvl 20 BM2 bar bro, we all know it I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥s.

FU2
10-03-2010, 01:53 PM
Spur keeps getting shat on and makes up random arguments now? lolwut.

Matrimoney
10-03-2010, 01:54 PM
Spur keeps getting shat on and makes up random arguments now? lolwut.

Now he's trying to say his lances/cannons get a bigger boost from party buffs+debuffs..makes me lol

He can't just I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥ and admit he's wrong and admit his lvl 20 BM2 bar I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥s.

FU2
10-03-2010, 01:57 PM
Of course cuz only the lances/cannons get a boost in damage. Durrrr urrr.

LastHour
10-03-2010, 03:55 PM
i dont see a point in arguing with u either. ure bringing so many diff variables into this calculation that the original stats arent even the same anymore. ure now talking about CA6 and FT2? lol are u planning to solo those? if not then wouldnt there be fury + mana condense + bless + panic + lower def? and wat about the 30sec of amp buff in the beginning? these all favor my lance/cannons over ure edc/sc/met? u havent thought about that have u. the more matk i get the more the calculation favor my small skills.

ratza left in the words of the trolls cause he got nuthin left to say and ure gonna leave cause of the same reason. isnt that wat all the trolls say?

Redid your bm2 test:
20 sc - 6 uses
20 Meteor - 6 uses
20 edc - 6 uses
20 af - 7 uses
20 light - 11 uses
20 hail - 11 uses
20 stone - 11 uses
20 vac - 8 uses
20 fire C - 9 uses
20 aqua C - 10 uses
20 terra L - 7 uses
20 fire L - 5 uses
20 aqua L - 3 uses
Total 100 skills for 385927.3 power

I didn't even have to go back and redo my original test for the other build. Even with the correction, you're still behind the 387xxx power of the other build. Those weren't in the proper order of power, fixing that would give me a small boost just as correcting yours did, and we'd be right back at the same difference as we had before just like I said. Funny how that works out.

I hate to break your heart sunshine, but amp buff boosts all skills equally. It makes sense, every skill will gain in base damage by [.25 * your m. atk], so it will all be the same gain among all skills. Same thing on criticals, the extra base damage gained * critical damage = the gain on criticals. Since critical damage hasn't changed and base damage all gained by the same amount, all skills would gain equally both in criticals and non-criticals. Example below:

1000 m. atk, 25% amp buff before/after and 100% critical damage for sake of ease
Skill 1: 1000;2000 -> 1250;2500
Skill 2: 1750;3500 -> 2000;4000 [notice how the differences are the EXACT same as before]

This is a good example, you make some BS claim like "amp buff favors my lower skills more" without backing it up with any evidence other than you eyeballing the game and saying its right. [because apparently having HR18 makes you some kind of cabal guru? Idk]. Then you get upset when we say its possibly wrong, and ask us to disprove it when you failed to admit evidence for the claim in the first place. Making those bs claims up and saying it's right is easier than disproving them, which requires A LOT more work. Seeing as you haven't changed in the entire thread, your just going to keep looking for the tiniest details to say they're wrong to try to vindicate yourself in this topic and hold on to this delusional image of self-importance you think you have in this game. It will never end, no matter if I work every possible situation you give me or not.

You're technically right as I said earlier. At some point the amp of LC > add attack of EDC. However, that point is 2237 m. atk. Aside from AoS B1F, how you plan to gain that much m. atk to prove yourself right is beyond any of us. Its also exponentially more difficult to gain m. atk at end-game, since the differences for better gear are smaller and at some point there is a maximum limit to what you can gain, period.

Ratza and myself had no problem with your preference for level 20 skills, but misusing and preaching things like "max dps" with that setup is why you got caught with your foot in your mouth. I've just ended up repeating myself in what I've said by this point, which is why I chose this post to leave the topic. The claims have been disproven, I've spoken my mind and there is nothing further we could gain in debating this or could prove. Your logic is going in circles now, so I'll let you get the last words in with w/e you want to say. I think we've given the community more than enough proof by now that the data can speak for itself.

Spur
10-03-2010, 04:13 PM
Are you serious? You're pretty desperate right not to redeem yourself aren't you? If you're getting Fury/MC/Bless and PC a boss, you're getting a dmg boost on every single skill. I'm pretty certain if you PC/HL a boss and use the lvl 9/12 BM2 bar, the debuffs will be in favor of EDC/SC/Meteor because they have more potential dmg output with 6xx+ add attack and 70+ amp as opposed to 15x add attack and 85 amp.

Have you forgotten the 25% M.amp buff as well? That also favors the hard hitters....you know...the ones you'll only be able to get 2-3 times while in BM2+Aura(40+ seconds)+25% amp buff as opposed to over 8 times with lvl 9's and 12's

In other words, when you PC/HL with full party buffs, you get more added dmg on EDC/MET/SC because of their high dmg output already. Keep rocking your lvl 20 BM2 bar bro, we all know it I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥s.

matri ure trolling just fails to amuse me. at least last comes up with numbers in the debate, u on the other hand just fail. ure trying to tell me matk increases and amp increases will benefit ure 70-75%amp skills more than my 85-95% amp skills? wat are u smoking the more amp i got in my skills the more it benefits from an matk increase.

the main reason y edc/met and sc have such high power is due to their add atk and guess wat having higher matk or amp does not affect this at all.

now as for last wat about the matk? glad u left it out. since u went thru all that trouble ill go thru some trouble and post my own table and prove u wrong once again. o and since u wont be coming back here there wont be anyone else to come evidently close to prove me wrong. hey and 1 last thing Lightning cannon is 12cast get it thru ure head cause magically u got 12 casts and i dont

Matrimoney
10-03-2010, 04:13 PM
Redid your bm2 test:
20 sc - 6 uses
20 Meteor - 6 uses
20 edc - 6 uses
20 af - 7 uses
20 light - 11 uses
20 hail - 11 uses
20 stone - 11 uses
20 vac - 8 uses
20 fire C - 9 uses
20 aqua C - 10 uses
20 terra L - 7 uses
20 fire L - 5 uses
20 aqua L - 3 uses
Total 100 skills for 385927.3 power

I didn't even have to go back and redo my original test for the other build. Even with the correction, you're still behind the 387xxx power of the other build. Those weren't in the proper order of power, fixing that would give me a small boost just as correcting yours did, and we'd be right back at the same difference as we had before just like I said. Funny how that works out.

I hate to break your heart sunshine, but amp buff boosts all skills equally. It makes sense, every skill will gain in base damage by [.25 * your m. atk], so it will all be the same gain among all skills. Same thing on criticals, the extra base damage gained * critical damage = the gain on criticals. Since critical damage hasn't changed and base damage all gained by the same amount, all skills would gain equally both in criticals and non-criticals. Example below:

1000 m. atk, 25% amp buff before/after and 100% critical damage for sake of ease
Skill 1: 1000;2000 -> 1250;2500
Skill 2: 1750;3500 -> 2000;4000 [notice how the differences are the EXACT same as before]

This is a good example, you make some BS claim like "amp buff favors my lower skills more" without backing it up with any evidence other than you eyeballing the game and saying its right. [because apparently having HR18 makes you some kind of cabal guru? Idk]. Then you get upset when we say its possibly wrong, and ask us to disprove it when you failed to admit evidence for the claim in the first place. Making those bs claims up and saying it's right is easier than disproving them, which requires A LOT more work. Seeing as you haven't changed in the entire thread, your just going to keep looking for the tiniest details to say they're wrong to try to vindicate yourself in this topic and hold on to this delusional image of self-importance you think you have in this game. It will never end, no matter if I work every possible situation you give me or not.

You're technically right as I said earlier. At some point the amp of LC > add attack of EDC. However, that point is 2237 m. atk. Aside from AoS B1F, how you plan to gain that much m. atk to prove yourself right is beyond any of us. Its also exponentially more difficult to gain m. atk at end-game, since the differences for better gear are smaller and at some point there is a maximum limit to what you can gain, period.

Ratza and myself had no problem with your preference for level 20 skills, but misusing and preaching things like "max dps" with that setup is why you got caught with your foot in your mouth. I've just ended up repeating myself in what I've said by this point, which is why I chose this post to leave the topic. The claims have been disproven, I've spoken my mind and there is nothing further we could gain in debating this or could prove. Your logic is going in circles now, so I'll let you get the last words in with w/e you want to say. I think we've given the community more than enough proof by now that the data can speak for itself.

Checkmate #2, Spur will either ignore this post or post some more mumbo jumbo random garbage trying to redeem himself again.

Matrimoney
10-03-2010, 04:23 PM
matri ure trolling just fails to amuse me. at least last comes up with numbers in the debate, u on the other hand just fail. ure trying to tell me matk increases and amp increases will benefit ure 70-75%amp skills more than my 85-95% amp skills? wat are u smoking the more amp i got in my skills the more it benefits from an matk increase.

oh look, u ignore the post above explaining exactly what im saying

"ure" ignorance is hilarious

Matrimoney
10-03-2010, 04:30 PM
btw if u think 25% more amp is going to benefit 85% amp 15x add attack over 75 amp 680 attack then ur a moron

Spur
10-03-2010, 04:33 PM
oh look, u ignore the post above explaining exactly what im saying

"ure" ignorance is hilarious

ignoring? lol
1400 base matk vs 1500 base matk
does it benefit my 85%amp lances or ure 75%amp sc more? common sense

Matrimoney
10-03-2010, 04:38 PM
ignoring? lol
1400 base matk vs 1500 base matk
does it benefit my 85%amp lances or ure 75%amp sc more? common sense

are you high? apparently meteor and cannons add the same amount of add attack too now, thats's good to know

Spur
10-03-2010, 04:42 PM
are you high? apparently meteor and cannons add the same amount of add attack too now, thats's good to know

sure u want some math noob?
1400matk
lvl 12 sc = 75% amp +741 add atk
lvl 20 terra lance = 85% amp +85add atk
ure sc = 2450 + 741 = 3191
my lance = 2590 + 85 = 2675
difference = 516

1500matk
lvl 12 sc = 75% amp +741 add atk
lvl 20 terra lance = 85% amp +85add atk
ure sc = 2625 + 741 = 3366
my lance = 2775 + 85 = 2860
difference = 506

please leave the math to the pros u may now step out matri

Matrimoney
10-03-2010, 04:54 PM
sure u want some math noob?
1400matk
lvl 12 sc = 75% amp +741 add atk
lvl 20 terra lance = 85% amp +85add atk
ure sc = 2450 + 741 = 3191
my lance = 2590 + 85 = 2675
difference = 516

1500matk
lvl 12 sc = 75% amp +741 add atk
lvl 20 terra lance = 85% amp +85add atk
ure sc = 2625 + 741 = 3366
my lance = 2775 + 85 = 2860
difference = 506

please leave the math to the pros u may now step out matri
its funny that you bring bm2 aura into the matter and are talking about cannons and lances, the two weakest hitting skills we have on a bm2 bar...because cannon/lance boosts would even matter? i did my tests without bm2 aura, and i was correct, u did urs in bm2 aura to prove a point...sad
so you went from stepping down when being proved wrong that ur bar isnt max dps to pointing out that while in bm2 aura w/o amp buff tera lance gets a bigger dmg boost than sc, even though that won't ever change the fact that ur bar has less dps than my bar

please spur leave knowing how to play wi to people that actually know how to play one, and take your garbage ass bm2 bar elsewhere


btw wheres the 1 bar tank vid and the 2 bar quad vid? do i need to upload my own to get you motivated to attempt 100 quad solo's to finally be able to 2 bar?

Spur
10-03-2010, 05:25 PM
its funny that you bring bm2 aura into the matter and are talking about cannons and lances, the two weakest hitting skills we have on a bm2 bar...because cannon/lance boosts would even matter? i did my tests without bm2 aura, and i was correct, u did urs in bm2 aura to prove a point...sad
so you went from stepping down when being proved wrong that ur bar isnt max dps to pointing out that while in bm2 aura w/o amp buff tera lance gets a bigger dmg boost than sc, even though that won't ever change the fact that ur bar has less dps than my bar

please spur leave knowing how to play wi to people that actually know how to play one, and take your garbage ass bm2 bar elsewhere


btw wheres the 1 bar tank vid and the 2 bar quad vid? do i need to upload my own to get you motivated to attempt 100 quad solo's to finally be able to 2 bar?

guess wat? in ure whole entire post i fail to see a math calculation cause u already know mine is correct. u know wat else is funny ure calculating a bm2+aura bar without bm2+aura stats who else can be that stupid? i would careless if u uploaded a 2bar quad ive already done it and people have already seen it, dun need u to see it in order for it to be real.

Eurus
10-03-2010, 06:11 PM
Didn't I give you IDIOTS the formula to calculate the skill DAMAGE!?!?!??

Here it is:

A = M. attack or Attack
B = Skill's Attack
C = Skill's Amp
D = Your M.amp or S.amp
E = Total Damage

E = (D + C)(A) + B + A = The skill's regular damage in the character data!

E x Your critical damage! If you have 100 critical damage, you do E x 2.00!

Note* This does not include the defense variable!

I hope this clarifies a few things!

Matrimoney
10-03-2010, 06:51 PM
guess wat? in ure whole entire post i fail to see a math calculation cause u already know mine is correct. u know wat else is funny ure calculating a bm2+aura bar without bm2+aura stats who else can be that stupid? i would careless if u uploaded a 2bar quad ive already done it and people have already seen it, dun need u to see it in order for it to be real.

lol who the f sits there and watched u 2 bar a quad? honestly kid ur so full of sh-...why u might wanna make the vid quick bro, ur 14 amp orb is gonna run out soon, and im sure u know that the extra 7 amp helps alot more than ur +11 forc orb in bm2 aura

iso-1st person solo's from spurskie :)

Eurus
10-03-2010, 06:55 PM
Q:What do you call Spur on a Astral Bike?

A: Organized crime.

+1 for Matrimoney!

Spur
10-03-2010, 09:06 PM
lol who the f sits there and watched u 2 bar a quad? honestly kid ur so full of sh-...why u might wanna make the vid quick bro, ur 14 amp orb is gonna run out soon, and im sure u know that the extra 7 amp helps alot more than ur +11 forc orb in bm2 aura

iso-1st person solo's from spurskie :)

the forcy amp is still > but coming from u not surprising u dont know. 1st person from me = me getting a frap and guess wat ill do it once u pvp me on merc

Matrimoney
10-03-2010, 09:59 PM
the forcy amp is still > but coming from u not surprising u dont know. 1st person from me = me getting a frap and guess wat ill do it once u pvp me on merc

You said you had 1500 mag atk in bm2 aura, wouldnt 7 amp > 40 mag attk when ur at 1500 mag atk?

hahaha, so in other words u cant do either of them because ur a trash wiz and ud rather settle it with a pvp rocking ur praetor of no life title?

k, i got the money to go over, OMW












































Oh wait, got a K red instead.

RatzaTM
10-03-2010, 11:46 PM
'Sup gu(a)ys ? Just dropped by to say hello and to check whether some people learned something from this ... guess not. Gonna go back to my troll cave now, please feed me until Christmas.

MyForumIsFISHIN
10-04-2010, 02:09 AM
Redid your bm2 test:
20 sc - 6 uses
20 Meteor - 6 uses
20 edc - 6 uses
20 af - 7 uses
20 light - 11 uses
20 hail - 11 uses
20 stone - 11 uses
20 vac - 8 uses
20 fire C - 9 uses
20 aqua C - 10 uses
20 terra L - 7 uses
20 fire L - 5 uses
20 aqua L - 3 uses
Total 100 skills for 385927.3 power



Looks like Spur missed it. But you snuck a vacuum into his bm2 bar? Thought he clarified that he doesn't have vacuum. He said he had 12 skills in his bar, with your calculations you had 13, thus vacuum was the addition. Looks like you have to redo that test all over again huh?

RatzaTM
10-04-2010, 03:24 AM
Ok ladies and gentlemen, here it is :

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/7464/proofib.png

How to interpret this ?

Level 170 char was in BM2 + Aura, against Rota (1700 def), 53CR / 200CD / 41AMP in both cases. Damage was taken from LastHour's damage calculator, in descending order, from highest to lowest hitters. Enjoy.

The top BM2 is my BM bar with level 9 skills. That's how the BM progresses based on cooldowns (the grey bars). The white boxes that you can see are actually moments when the skill is cooled but not used (due to other skills being cast).
The bottom BM2 is the level 20 skills BM2 bar (not sure if those are Spur's skills because I didn't check his bar, but with level 20 skills, that's the order of damaging skills.
PS: Spur, you need 11 skills for your lvl 20 bm2, not 13, so you can have all your bm2 skills + 2 lances, without the need of using lances in bm2 :P

I'll leave you to check out the results.

Note : I split the 85 seconds of double BM in 1.7 parts, resulting in 50 x 1.7 casts, that's 100 skills in total. The cooldowns were rounded to the 1.7 * X value, due to another skill being casted at that time. If you take a look at stone cannon for example, the cooldown is 5.3. The real BM2 cooldown is 6.8, because once you cast Stone and wait for 3 other skills to be casted, your cooldown reaches 5.1, at this time stone is not ready yet, so another skill gets cast. This means that Stone becomes available right after the other animation starts, and can be available for cast on 4 x 1.7 skills, since each animation lasts for 1.7, so the real cooldown of Stone is 6.8, because you can cast it from 1.7 to 1.7 seconds only, not 1.7 + 1.7 + 1.7 + 0.2, so you lose 1.5 seconds in which the skill is cooled but unusable.

The last 3 columns : Number of total casts per BM -> Maximum damage possible (if all hits would be crits) -> Average damage being done (using combination of crit/non-crit, based on the average values from LastHour)


As always, right click - View image. For some reason, this forum doesn't have a pop-up/resize plugin installed.

How to calculate which skills to use and at which levels ?
1) Highest damage output until you can recast is at level 9 (do this for all skills to find out the peak output for each skill for it's given cooldown - this one is for EDC hence level 9)
2) Spamming the skill at that peak level will result in highest damage being dealt, as you can see in the below picture (second chart)

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/7736/45447457.png

In the bottom BM representation, you will see why spamming at level 9 is better overall. Do this for all skills, then match them as lego parts as I did in the first picture, while knowing this peak value for each skill, and then you will have your highest damage output BM with the least skills and least skill points.


VERY VERY IMPORTANT NOTE : In the first picture, ONLY EDC AND SC have been fully optimized (used at peak values) hence level 9. The others, AF, HS, LC, etc are at maximum level, but maximum level doesn't guarantee highest peak, so the difference would be even higher if all skills would be used at their peak points and not just SC / EDC. Play around with the levels and you will find out the best levels for each skill in your BM2 based on this output peak per second of cooldown (to improve the repetition rate).
As LastHour said : Overall damage output = (Damage of skill_1 * Number of casts) + (Damage of skill_2 * Number of casts) + ... + (Damage of skill_X * Number of casts). It is not Damage of skill_1 + Damage of skill_ 2 + ... + Damage of skill_3

You need to find the most damage being dealt in the least amount of time until the skill becomes available again. Applying the same principle of repetition, I think you can pull it off with a 6 - 7 skills BM2, all of them at roughly 9 - 12 (even cannons). I'm really curious to find out how many "peaked" skills a BM2 would include and which would these be.

PS: I didn't use Meteorite, but you should include it. I'll post my highest damage output BM2 bar when the update hits us as well.
PS2 : Don't take the results for granted. Do the math for your set in simple BM2, BM2 + Aura, BM2 + Aura + Short and then average them a bit in case the results show different skills as being peaked skills (amp increase would be the proportional for each skill, so you need skills for 2 scenarios - BM and BMA)

Spur
10-04-2010, 06:20 AM
just like i stated on the EU forum ure dps until availability chart makes no sense. u are plainly calculating the total dmg of all the edcs during a full bm2 whereas the lower lvls will obviously get more casts off. the thing u fail to realize is the higher lvl edc user will not just stand there when its on cooldown and actually cast another skill in its place

RatzaTM
10-04-2010, 06:24 AM
just like i stated on the EU forum ure dps until availability chart makes no sense. u are plainly calculating the total dmg of all the edcs during a full bm2 whereas the lower lvls will obviously get more casts off. the thing u fail to realize is the higher lvl edc user will not just stand there when its on cooldown and actually cast another skill in its place

I just showed you how skills are paired and cast, based on highest damage done, in the chart. How can that be a simple calculation of all EDC when on the right side you have the total damage output, based on how the skills are triggered.
I didn't fail anything, you just didn't understand the picture, and I actually thought it would be easier for you to comprehend a drawing, than mathematics.

SC + EDC / AF + LC / Hail + Stone / .... etc ... how can that be adding EDC only ?
I ALSO SHOWED on the right side, how many casts you have in total :

In your BM, you have 6 SC / 7 EDC / 7 AF .... all those are summed up on the right side.

Spur
10-04-2010, 06:39 AM
I just showed you how skills are paired and cast, based on highest damage done, in the chart. How can that be a simple calculation of all EDC when on the right side you have the total damage output, based on how the skills are triggered.
I didn't fail anything, you just didn't understand the picture, and I actually thought it would be easier for you to comprehend a drawing, than mathematics.

SC + EDC / AF + LC / Hail + Stone / .... etc ... how can that be adding EDC only ?
I ALSO SHOWED on the right side, how many casts you have in total :

In your BM, you have 6 SC / 7 EDC / 7 AF .... all those are summed up on the right side.

i answered ure post on the EU forums as well there u will see all the numbers. like i said there u got 17sc casts at lvl 9 totaling 62305avg, i got 6sc casts at lvl 20 totaling 29988 avg so the diff between them is 11 skills and 32317avg. these are ure numbers so u cant say im making them up.

now look at the bottom chart again and look at the avg per skill and u can see its close to 3k cause the majority of the casts were aqua cannon and above. 11 casts of 3k = 33k which is more than 32317 which means it covers ure constant casts of lvl 9 sc. this means a lv 20 sc is the better choice in bm2

RatzaTM
10-04-2010, 06:56 AM
i answered ure post on the EU forums as well there u will see all the numbers. like i said there u got 17sc casts at lvl 9 totaling 62305avg, i got 6sc casts at lvl 20 totaling 29988 avg so the diff between them is 11 skills and 32317avg. these are ure numbers so u cant say im making them up.

now look at the bottom chart again and look at the avg per skill and u can see its close to 3k cause the majority of the casts were aqua cannon and above. 11 casts of 3k = 33k which is more than 32317 which means it covers ure constant casts of lvl 9 sc. this means a lv 20 sc is the better choice in bm2

Do you or do you not agree from the picture that :

MY BM Casts :

8 AF + 17 SC + 17 EDC + 12 LC + 12 Hail + 11 Stone + 8 Vacuum + 10 Fire + 5 Aqua = 100 skills

YOUR BM Casts :

6 SC + 7 EDC + 7 AF + 13 LC + 12 Hail + 12 Stone + 9 Vacuum + 13 Fire + 11 Aqua + 8 LLance + 2 Chain

The difference between them is not 6SC + 11 skills versus my 17 SC. In the end, we both cast 100 skills, just that the difference on my side is higher.

My extra 1 AF + 10 EDC + 11 SC >> your extra 1 LC + 1 Stone + 1 Vacuum + 3 Fire + 6 Aqua + 8 Lance + 2 Chain
Hailstorm is casted the same amount of time, this is the only difference between our BMs. And I have proven that the 22 skills that I cast (AF + EDC + SC) are higher in damage output than the 22 skills that you cast (LC+Stone+Vacuum+Fire+Aqua+Lance+Chain) in order to fulfill the 100 casts per BM.


You want to compare only 17 skills out of the 100 ? So be it . It's my 17 SC versus your 6 SC + Fillers of 3k average.
My 17 SC = 62.305
Your 6 SC + 11 fillers = 26.814 + 33.000 (EDC is 29.988, learn to read a table, SC is 26.814) -> In my example, SC is second row, in your BM, it's first row.

62.305 > 59.814

Spur
10-04-2010, 07:26 AM
Do you or do you not agree from the picture that :

MY BM Casts :

8 AF + 17 SC + 17 EDC + 12 LC + 12 Hail + 11 Stone + 8 Vacuum + 10 Fire + 5 Aqua = 100 skills

YOUR BM Casts :

6 SC + 7 EDC + 7 AF + 13 LC + 12 Hail + 12 Stone + 9 Vacuum + 13 Fire + 11 Aqua + 8 LLance + 2 Chain

The difference between them is not 6SC + 11 skills versus my 17 SC. In the end, we both cast 100 skills, just that the difference on my side is higher.

My extra 1 AF + 10 EDC + 11 SC >> your extra 1 LC + 1 Stone + 1 Vacuum + 3 Fire + 6 Aqua + 8 Lance + 2 Chain
Hailstorm is casted the same amount of time, this is the only difference between our BMs. And I have proven that the 22 skills that I cast (AF + EDC + SC) are higher in damage output than the 22 skills that you cast (LC+Stone+Vacuum+Fire+Aqua+Lance+Chain) in order to fulfill the 100 casts per BM.


You want to compare only 17 skills out of the 100 ? So be it . It's my 17 SC versus your 6 SC + Fillers of 3k average.
My 17 SC = 62.305
Your 6 SC + 11 fillers = 26.814 + 33.000 (EDC is 29.988, learn to read a table, SC is 26.814) -> In my example, SC is second row, in your BM, it's first row.

62.305 > 59.814

so if that were the case then a lvl 20 edc > lvl 9 edc
lvl 9 edc 17 casts = 59738
lvl 20 edc 7 casts = 29988
difference 29750 and 10 casts = 2975avg
10 skills of 3k = 3000
so are u saying lvl 20 edc > lvl 9 edc?

Rage
10-04-2010, 07:32 AM
10 skills of 3k = 3000

sick math bro

Spur
10-04-2010, 07:42 AM
sick math bro

oo i left out the word avg sry mr troll

Rage
10-04-2010, 07:49 AM
I just find it funny that you're still trying to argue that lvl20 skills are better when you keep getting shi/t on.

Spur
10-04-2010, 08:02 AM
I just find it funny that you're still trying to argue that lvl20 skills are better when you keep getting shi/t on.

so if that were the case then a lvl 20 edc > lvl 9 edc
lvl 9 edc 17 casts = 59738
lvl 20 edc 7 casts = 29988
difference 29750 and 10 casts = 2975avg
10 skills of 3k = 3000avg
so are u saying lvl 20 edc > lvl 9 edc?

so wats ure say on this?

ankoun2232
10-04-2010, 08:14 AM
so if that were the case then a lvl 20 edc > lvl 9 edc
lvl 9 edc 17 casts = 59738
lvl 20 edc 7 casts = 29988
difference 29750 and 10 casts = 2975avg
10 skills of 3k = 3000avg
so are u saying lvl 20 edc > lvl 9 edc?

so wats ure say on this?

my say on this
you should go back to school bro

time for some ankoun math

1 N E RDYy asian with no life+a good computer with cabal= spur

k


i love how u complain about trolling but yet u hand feed the trollers =)

smh
smashurkeyboardplox
=D love u

(this message has been approved by ankoun) LMAO

Romp
10-04-2010, 08:37 AM
gear/stats > all of this

+ there is nothing in this game difficult enough pve wise to where you would need you to make these changes

Matrimoney
10-04-2010, 08:37 AM
so if that were the case then a lvl 20 edc > lvl 9 edc
lvl 9 edc 17 casts = 59738
lvl 20 edc 7 casts = 29988
difference 29750 and 10 casts = 2975avg
10 skills of 3k = 3000
so are u saying lvl 20 edc > lvl 9 edc?

you see to be forgetting that since you have to cast fillers because of lvl 20 edc, the overall dps drops because of that simple fact, which is why your bm2 bar I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥s. sure your dmg output on your hard hitters is high ONLY when they're casted, but as soon as we start to look at how often your weak hitters are cast, it nullifies that extra dmg out.

comprende amigo?



17 lvl 9 edc's and 3 cannons

or 7 lvl 20 ec's and 13 cannons

checkmate

MamaMiaYoe
10-04-2010, 08:48 AM
Made a wiz 3 days ago its lvl 82 now...I dont know how to use bm2 LOL! do u just spam it? press the bars altogether or one by one? Im still a noob. >.>

DoItOver
10-04-2010, 08:51 AM
All I gotta say is..........































Ju all sad.






































Go out more.









































Learn to play more with friends.









































OH WAIT....... Yuz all loners and cabal freaks.

Spur
10-04-2010, 08:57 AM
you see to be forgetting that since you have to cast fillers because of lvl 20 edc, the overall dps drops because of that simple fact, which is why your bm2 bar I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥I love you >.<♥s. sure your dmg output on your hard hitters is high ONLY when they're casted, but as soon as we start to look at how often your weak hitters are cast, it nullifies that extra dmg out.

comprende amigo?



17 lvl 9 edc's and 3 cannons

or 7 lvl 20 ec's and 13 cannons

checkmate

did matri just not understand wat i posted?

lvl 9 edc 17 casts = 59738
lvl 20 edc 7 casts = 29988
difference 29750 and 10 casts = 2975avg
10 skills of 3k = 3000avg
so are u saying lvl 20 edc > lvl 9 edc?

7edc + 10cannons > 17edc therefore 7edc + 13cannons > 17edc + 3cannons lol matri go hide again

bored2010
10-04-2010, 09:28 AM
o.0 balls

RatzaTM
10-04-2010, 09:34 AM
so if that were the case then a lvl 20 edc > lvl 9 edc
lvl 9 edc 17 casts = 59738
lvl 20 edc 7 casts = 29988
difference 29750 and 10 casts = 2975avg
10 skills of 3k = 3000avg
so are u saying lvl 20 edc > lvl 9 edc?

so wats ure say on this?

Your logic is something like this : You know you have ten fingers. 10, 9, 8, 7, 6 from one hand + 5 fingers from the other hand => 11 fingers. Right ? Wrong.

You want to fairly compare our BMs ? Here you go :

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/1695/86365448.jpg

You have the skills on the middle
The differences in numbers of casts between yours and mine (2 more AF for me, 10 more EDC and 10 more SC ; 1 more LC, 1 more Stone, etc for you)
You have the Damage Difference caused by these extra casts (17 EDC vs 7 EDC results in +29750 DMG for me as example) for both you and me

If you look at the overall DMG, the blueish box, MY BM DEALS MORE DAMAGE OVERALL than yours, with unoptimized levels except for SC and EDC which are at the perfect level, meaning level 9. I could get more damage by finding the peak damage of each skill, but I did it for EDC / SC only for now.

As you can see, besides the skills we both cast, we have 22 extra that differ and cause a difference. Let's compare these differences.

STAGE 1 : 10 EDC versus your best 10 fillers (what you are trying to rightfully prove above)
10 EDC have a bonus of 29750 while 10 of your best fillers (1 lc, 1 stone, 1 vacuum, 3 fire and 4 aqua out of 6, to make it 10) produce 30121 damage.
All good and dandy so far, Spur proves that his 7 EDC + 10 best fillers are better than 17 EDC @ 9. (Although I could have been mean and use the 2 Chain + 8 Light Lance to compare to 10 EDC, resulting in me being right, since 29750 is better than 28746, but let's give him the satisfaction of a partial win).

STAGE 2 : My next 10 skills that differ from your BM, versus your 10 other fillers out of the total of 22 that we both have (12 remaining)
10 SC have a bonus of 35491 for my BM, while your next 10 best fillers provide 25224
Clear win on my side

STAGE 3 : Our last 2 skills that differ from the main casts
2 AF give me a bonus difference of 3703, compared to your 2 Chain Explosions which give you 5722. Another win on your side.


If we now add the bonuses, we get : 68.944 for me, 64.735 for Spur's build. Overall, my damage output is higher because 10 EDC + 10 SC + 2 AF has GREATER DAMAGE OUTPUT than 1 LC + 1 Stone + 1 Vacuum + 3 Fire + 6 Aqua + 8 Lance + 2 Chain.

Also, let's not forget the importance of having more GM / Comp cast : Stun effect which helps lower level parties more than casting more Aqua Cannons and Lances in abundance.

Overall, Comp + GM @ level 9 provide more DAMAGE OUTPUT than lvl 20 ones, thus, for a 85 second duration, they also provide better DPS, since 334.151 / 85 is higher than 329.942 / 85.

Romp
10-04-2010, 09:53 AM
4k difference? is that really worth it. I like lv20 skills so i can smack people in war/pvp. If you wanna be pro pve ask ascension how dey bm2

RatzaTM
10-04-2010, 09:57 AM
4k difference? is that really worth it. I like lv20 skills so i can smack people in war/pvp. If you wanna be pro pve ask ascension how dey bm2

4k with only 2 skills tweaked.
You get 4k more damage, less skillpoints used, more stun for mobs, more HP down (from more GMs), less skills in 1 BM2 cycle.
True, if you want to smack someone in PVP / WAR and you NEVER get to cycle through the same skills again vs a target, then lvl 20 ftw, but if you have to spam skills in a cycle, then you actually lose damage overall, that's my point.

I will post the best BM2 bar for a given set (because the bars differ from set to set) and I will show you how to calculate your own bar, based on your own set, and so on.

As LastHour said : If Spur would've came to say - My bm2 bar is the best for a 1 cycle only (all his 13 skills cast once) then nobody would've challenged him, as he would've been right. But coming here and saying that lvl 20 skills are the best for BM2 (in general) and that the damage output is higher for a whole BM when using lvl 20 skills, that's just wrong.

Spur's build is 100% true in one situation only : Go TG, chase an enemy, kill him with 1 - > x skills of your BM2 bar, then BY THE TIME YOU MEET THE SECOND ONE, all skills should be cooled off. This means that if you kill 1 enemy each 15 seconds, the bar is awesome, as it never cycles through skills. If you stop and spam skills though, you will have more dmg by using lvl 9 skills, even in TG, because cycling them actually increases your damage (unlike Spur's build which is suitable for a 1 enemy each 15 seconds, so that SC @ 20 is cooled again for the next target).

Spur's BM2 bar flaws are :

1) Overall lower damage when constantly casting skills (cycling them) compared to 1 time hitting. (results in overall lower DPS for 85 seconds of a BM, not DPS of each skill alone).
2) More skillslots used
3) More skillpoints used
4) Less stunning and crowd control
5) Less HP down effect

Spur's BM2 pros are :

1) Highest damage output on targets whose HP < skill 1 dmg + skill 2 dmg + ... + skill 13 dmg (all of his skills from BM2). This is because until the cycle restarts from 1, his dmg is maxed out. When the cycle takes place, he loses damage overall.

Spur
10-04-2010, 10:38 AM
sry but once u posted that chart i no longer needed to compare our full bm2 bar. all i need is to prove u have a flaw in it therefor it can no longer be fully correct.

lvl 9 edc 17 casts = 59738
lvl 20 edc 7 casts = 29988
difference 29750 and 10 casts = 2975avg
10 skills of 3k = 3000avg
so are u saying lvl 20 edc > lvl 9 edc?

all i need u to do is tell me is this correct or not. if it is which i do not doubt one bit it proves a lvl 20 edc > than ure lvl 9 edc in a full bm2 bar. im not even talking about sc anymore cause ure edc is already flawed.

Romp
10-04-2010, 10:41 AM
Is there anything that spur cant do PVE? He can solo ca5 solo pluma with his bars. And he Likes to go to war and PvP. What is the point of lower ur skills for increase of BM2 when he can do everything already. Mind aswell make ur skills max for PvP/War.

RatzaTM
10-04-2010, 10:47 AM
sry but once u posted that chart i no longer needed to compare our full bm2 bar. all i need is to prove u have a flaw in it therefor it can no longer be fully correct.

lvl 9 edc 17 casts = 59738
lvl 20 edc 7 casts = 29988
difference 29750 and 10 casts = 2975avg
10 skills of 3k = 3000avg
so are u saying lvl 20 edc > lvl 9 edc?

all i need u to do is tell me is this correct or not. if it is which i do not doubt one bit it proves a lvl 20 edc > than ure lvl 9 edc in a full bm2 bar. im not even talking about sc anymore cause ure edc is already flawed.

EDC is not flawed my friend, you just fail to understand a certain thing.

If I compare my 17 EDC with your 7 EDC + Lowest skills, I am correct (2 Chain + 8 Lance)
If I compare my 17 EDC with your 7 EDC + Strongest fillers, you are correct (as shown above)

The problem is ... you cannot cast the same strong fillers, due to cooldown, which means that your 10 fillers will be better than my 10 EDC, for those 10 casts, for the other 10 casts, my 10 SC will be better than your fillers (coz they are lances and stuff) and the last 2 fillers that differentiate us, until 100 skills are reached, will be won by you also.

As a grand total though, even if your best 10 fillers surpass my 10 EDC, my BM will deal more damage, because you run out of skills to match my 10 extra SC :P (and don't tell me you cast the same 10 top fillers to match me, because you can't, due to cast time, as I shown in the chart).

For 100 - 78 skills that we don't have in common, (22 skills that differentiate our build damage) I was right when I said my BM > your BM output. For the EDC vs best 10 fillers though, you were right.
Overall, you were wrong, and you still are :)

What you shown above is just a fraction of the whole difference between our BMs. It's not just 17 EDC @ 9 versus 7 EDC @ 20 + 10 skills, it's 22 skills vs 22 skills, as shown. And that's where you can't keep up with the damage, because I cast 10 SC + 10 EDC + 2 AF while you cast 22 low level skills that can't cover the whole damage of extra lvl 9 comp / gm.

To prove my point to you : Please point out the flaw in my chart regarding your BM strongest skills, flaw which could have been generated by a misplaced cooldown. I'm all ears to explain the chart so you can understand.

@ROMP : He can do anything, but he is not at 100% efficiency :P. The point of lowering your skills is to teach someone who DOESN'T do what Spur does (spam TG) that having lvl 20 skills is wrong. Spur's claim is also wrong, that lvl 20 > lvl 9 in BM2. He could potentially gain 10 - 15% more damage. It's not fair nor correct to say that "Lvl 20 skills are the best in BM" when it was proven otherwise. Level 20 skills fit my Spur playing style, I could've agreed to that, but claiming such bs that lvl 20 > all, hell no.

IMO he should stick to his lvl 20 but not promote it nor encourage it, as I will be here to prove him wrong about his damage output.

@ Spur : Please tell me the flaw of your BM2 bar chart. I am 100% confident that the skills are cast that way. Prove me wrong please or admit you compare only parts of the BM, parts which benefit you (like comparing 17 EDC with 17 EDC + Fillers instead of 100 skills vs 100 skills, or at least 22 differential skills vs 22 differential skills).

Spur
10-04-2010, 10:50 AM
EDC is not flawed my friend, you just fail to understand a certain thing.

If I compare my 17 EDC with your 7 EDC + Lowest skills, I am correct (2 Chain + 8 Lance)
If I compare my 17 EDC with your 7 EDC + Strongest fillers, you are correct (as shown above)

The problem is ... you cannot cast the same strong fillers, due to cooldown, which means that your 10 fillers will be better than my 10 EDC, for those 10 casts, for the other 10 casts, my 10 SC will be better than your fillers (coz they are lances and stuff) and the last 2 fillers that differentiate us, until 100 skills are reached, will be won by you also.

As a grand total though, even if your best 10 fillers surpass my 10 EDC, my BM will deal more damage, because you run out of skills to match my 10 extra SC :P (and don't tell me you cast the same 10 top fillers to match me, because you can't, due to cast time, as I shown in the chart).

For 100 - 78 skills that we don't have in common, (22 skills that differentiate our build damage) I was right when I said my BM > your BM output. For the EDC vs best 10 fillers though, you were right.
Overall, you were wrong, and you still are :)

What you shown above is just a fraction of the whole difference between our BMs. It's not just 17 EDC @ 9 versus 7 EDC @ 20 + 10 skills, it's 22 skills vs 22 skills, as shown. And that's where you can't keep up with the damage, because I cast 10 SC + 10 EDC + 2 AF while you cast 22 low level skills that can't cover the whole damage of extra lvl 9 comp / gm.

again... im not talking about sc till u prove edc correct. we used an avg for everything so far so wat makes the diff here? i used the avg of the lower skills and it came to 3k which is greater than ure edc difference. ure saying edc isnt flawed but im showing u right here that it is

RatzaTM
10-04-2010, 11:00 AM
again... im not talking about sc till u prove edc correct. we used an avg for everything so far so wat makes the diff here? i used the avg of the lower skills and it came to 3k which is greater than ure edc difference. ure saying edc isnt flawed but im showing u right here that it is

EDC is correct as long as you choose best 10 fillers to compare with my 17 EDC.
But the BM is not solely about EDC, nor can you multiply the EDC results to cover the whole BM.

You can't just say "because 10 EDC + 10 fillers are better than your 20 EDC, it will be the same for the other 80 pairs of skills". Look at how the chart shows what you cast, when you cast it, and how much damage it does.

Are you that freakin' r-tarded or do I have to point out the damage output for each pair of cast skills so that you understand that you're comparing fractions of your BM (17 skills) which benefit you, and leave out the rest of the skills which benefit my claims (83 skills).

You can't just multiply the results of 17 compared skills by 5 and say that it's a valid claim for the whole BM duration. Are you mentally challenged or what's your problem ?

YOUR 7 EDC @ 20 + 10 BEST FILLERS THAT YOU CAN CAST AT THAT TIME ARE BETTER THAN MY 17 EDC @ 9, YET EVEN SO, YOUR TOTAL DAMAGE OUTPUT IS LOWER DUE TO MY HIGHER RANKED SPAMMED SKILLS COMPARED TO YOUR LAME CANNONS. You wanna know why ? Because you can't cast the same skills all over again due to your immense cooldown. My additional 22 skills (10 edc + 10 sc + 2 af) totally outdamage your additional 22 skills. All other 78 skills deal the same amount of damage as as sum, so the difference comes from these 22 vs 22, not 17 edc vs 7 edc + 10 fillers.

Can you read the above 20 times please ? You were 33% correct, let's say, but the other 67% proves me right, and in the end, makes me right overall.
Your BM will be better for 10 seconds only, as long as those 7 EDC + 10 fillers are cast. The other 75 seconds, my build will regain lost damage and outdamage your BM.

With the risk of repeating myself : For the duration of the 17 skills (9 pairs of skills, 9 x 1.7 = 15.3 seconds) your damage output will be higher than mine. For the other 85 - 15.3 seconds, my BM2 will catch-up and SURPASS your damage output, due to the other skills that I cast and you cannot (due to higher cooldowns)

Spur
10-04-2010, 11:14 AM
EDC is correct as long as you choose best 10 fillers to compare with my 17 EDC.
But the BM is not solely about EDC, nor can you multiply the EDC results to cover the whole BM.

You can't just say "because 10 EDC + 10 fillers are better than your 20 EDC, it will be the same for the other 80 pairs of skills". Look at how the chart shows what you cast, when you cast it, and how much damage it does.

Are you that freakin' r-tarded or do I have to point out the damage output for each pair of cast skills so that you understand that you're comparing fractions of your BM (17 skills) which benefit you, and leave out the rest of the skills which benefit my claims (83 skills).

You can't just multiply the results of 17 compared skills by 5 and say that it's a valid claim for the whole BM duration. Are you mentally challenged or what's your problem ?

YOUR 7 EDC @ 20 + 10 BEST FILLERS THAT YOU CAN CAST AT THAT TIME ARE BETTER THAN MY 17 EDC @ 9, YET EVEN SO, YOUR TOTAL DAMAGE OUTPUT IS LOWER DUE TO MY HIGHER RANKED SPAMMED SKILLS COMPARED TO YOUR LAME CANNONS.

Can you read the above 20 times please ? You were 33% correct, let's say, but the other 67% proves me right, and in the end, makes me right overall.
Your BM will be better for 10 seconds only, as long as those 7 EDC + 10 fillers are cast. The other 75 seconds, my build will regain lost damage and outdamage your BM.

With the risk of repeating myself : For the duration of the 17 skills (9 pairs of skills, 9 x 1.7 = 15.3 seconds) your damage output will be higher than mine. For the other 85 - 15.3 seconds, my BM2 will catch-up and SURPASS your damage output, due to the other skills that I cast and you cannot (due to higher cooldowns)

wow after 2 pages of this u still dont get it.

lvl 9 edc 17 casts = 59738
lvl 20 edc 7 casts = 29988
difference 29750 and 10 casts = 2975avg
10 skills of 3k = 3000avg
20 edc > lvl 9 edc

no matter how u prove it as long as this remains true a lvl 20edc > lvl 9edc. how u gain the extra dmg from either sc or ure other skill will not change this fact

lentil
10-04-2010, 11:14 AM
Does this only apply to bm2? Because you can cast 3 lances/cannon in combo instead of 1 sc through mobs. The cast time of sc and edc is the same as lance/cannon in bm2 or no?

RatzaTM
10-04-2010, 11:19 AM
wow after 2 pages of this u still dont get it.

lvl 9 edc 17 casts = 59738
lvl 20 edc 7 casts = 29988
difference 29750 and 10 casts = 2975avg
10 skills of 3k = 3000avg
20 edc > lvl 9 edc

no matter how u prove it as long as this remains true a lvl 20edc > lvl 9edc. how u gain the extra dmg from either sc or ure other skill will not change this fact

Actually, you don't get it : 7 x lvl 20 EDC + 10 best lvl 20 fillers > 17 x lvl 9 EDC, by 400 damage.
LEVEL 20 EDC IS NOT BETTER THAN LVL 9 EDC, LEVEL 20 EDC NEEDS FILLERS TO SURPASS LEVEL 9 EDC DAMAGE OUTPUT. Even your fu.cking comparison is incomplete. 20 EDC < 9 EDC. 20 EDC + fillers > 9 EDC. Get it, Sherlock ?

17 EDC or 7 EDC + 10 fillers are cast in the same amount of time : 9 x 1.7 seconds (18 skills) = 15.3 seconds, BUT WE ARE NOT COMPARING THE ONLY 15.3 SECONDS OF A BM WHICH FAVOR YOUR BUILD, WE ARE COMPARING THE WHOLE 85 SECONDS OF IT, WHERE YOUR BUILD LOSES DAMAGE OVER TIME.

YOUR BM DAMAGE WILL BE HIGHER FOR 15 SECONDS ONLY !!!!!!!! As long as the 7 EDC + 10 fillers are cast. For the remaining BM, you won't be able to cast any other EDC nor any other top filler, all your casts are used, and my BM will catch up to yours and SURPASS your damage output. You would need 7 EDC + 10 fillers each 15 seconds to outdamage me by 400 points each 15.3 seconds, which is impossible, because you get to cast 7 EDC YOUR WHOLE FREAKIN BM.

@lentil : Talking about BM2 only, indeed.
@Spur : Do you mind me asking how old are you ? Does anyone know how old you are ? Because I have a feeling I'm chatting with a spoiled brat that won't use his brains. I pray to God you're not more than 14, otherwise I should be feeling sorry for your family and closest folks for having to deal with such a person.

Spur
10-04-2010, 11:26 AM
Actually, you don't get it : 7 x lvl 20 EDC + 10 best lvl 20 fillers > 17 x lvl 9 EDC, by 400 damage.
LEVEL 20 EDC IS NOT BETTER THAN LVL 9 EDC, LEVEL 20 EDC NEEDS FILLERS TO SURPASS LEVEL 9 EDC DAMAGE OUTPUT. Even your fu.cking comparison is incomplete. 20 EDC < 9 EDC. 20 EDC + fillers > 9 EDC. Get it, Sherlock ?

17 EDC or 7 EDC + 10 fillers are cast in the same amount of time : 9 x 1.7 seconds (18 skills) = 15.3 seconds.

YOUR BM DAMAGE WILL BE HIGHER FOR 15 SECONDS ONLY !!!!!!!! As long as the 7 EDC + 10 fillers are cast. For the remaining BM, you won't be able to cast any other EDC nor any other top filler, all your casts are used, and my BM will catch up to yours and SURPASS your damage output. You would need 7 EDC + 10 fillers each 15 seconds to outdamage me by 400 points each 15.3 seconds, which is impossible, because you get to cast 7 EDC YOUR WHOLE FREAKIN BM.

@lentil : Talking about BM2 only, indeed.

wow... u still dont get the math
ure 17edcs are paired with 17cannons/lances
my 7edcs will be paired with 7cannons/lances and while ure 10edcs are casted im getting another 10cannon/lances + its pair of 10cannons/lances
as u notice it makes absolutely no difference 17cannon/lances cancel each other out in damage therefore its left with
17edc vs 7edc + 10cannons/lances
i didnt even think i needed to explain it that clearly.. u got no more edcs to cast therefore ure edc dps will not be increasing no matter how long ure bm2 lasts

RatzaTM
10-04-2010, 11:37 AM
wow... u still dont get the math
ure 17edcs are paired with 17cannons/lances
my 7edcs will be paired with 7cannons/lances and while ure 10edcs are casted im getting another 10cannon/lances + its pair of 10cannons/lances
as u notice it makes absolutely no difference 17cannon/lances cancel each other out in damage therefore its left with
17edc vs 7edc + 10cannons/lances
i didnt even think i needed to explain it that clearly.. u got no more edcs to cast therefore ure edc dps will not be increasing no matter how long ure bm2 lasts

My 17 EDC could be paired with 17 SC which deal more damage than your lances/cannons. Did you ever think about that ?
I got no more EDCs to cast indeed after these 17, but I have more SC to compensate for that, leading to a higher damage output IN THE FREAKIN END !!!!!

Whereas in a whole BM2 you cast 6 SC + 7 EDC + 7 AF + 12 Hail + 49 Cannons + 9 Vacuum + 10 other skills, I get to cast 17 SC + 17 EDC + 8 AF + 12 Hail + 48 cannons + 8 Vacuum.

You see the difference now ? Why OVERALL (not specifically EDC vs EDC) my BM bar is better ? Because I cast 34 Comp / GM + 48 cannons, while you cast 13 Comp / GM + 49 cannons. These 30 extra GM / Comp make up for any damage you do with skills other than the cannons and GM/Comp (which were already counted in the comparison, and as such are already cast, all of them)

chainlock
10-04-2010, 11:44 AM
Whereas in a whole BM2 you cast 6 SC + 7 EDC + 7 AF + 12 Hail + 49 Cannons + 9 Vacuum + 10 other skills, I get to cast 17 SC + 17 EDC + 8 AF + 12 Hail + 48 cannons + 8 Vacuum.


I just recorded myself in bm2. I count 90 casts before extend and 138 total after.

RatzaTM
10-04-2010, 11:48 AM
Why do you get to cast 10 more skills total than he does? I just recorded myself in bm2. I count 90 casts before extend and 138 total after.

There are 100 casts in each BM, both mine and his. Mine are predominantly GM / Comp while his are predominantly low level skills.
85 seconds divided by 1.7 seconds for each dual cast = 50. 50 x 2 (due to dual cast) => 100 skills for both of us. Look at the pic and you will notice that the number of skills we cast is equal, it's just that mine deal out more damage in the end, at the end of the 85 seconds, while Spur here is stuck on proving that for 15 seconds he has higher damage (when his EDC + fillers hit against my 17 EDC)

Spur
10-04-2010, 11:50 AM
My 17 EDC could be paired with 17 SC which deal more damage than your lances/cannons. Did you ever think about that ?
I got no more EDCs to cast indeed after these 17, but I have more SC to compensate for that, leading to a higher damage output IN THE FREAKIN END !!!!!

exactly u finally get it. ure sc is compensating for ure edcs loss in dmg which means ure sc is the reason y ure overall avg is higher. ure lvl 9 edc < my lvl 20 edc

guess wat ill make it easier for u lvl ure sc to 20 and make the only difference lvl 9 edc and lvl 20 edc and ull see the difference

Berserk_Fury
10-04-2010, 11:54 AM
exactly u finally get it. ure sc is compensating for ure edcs loss in dmg which means ure sc is the reason y ure overall avg is higher. ure lvl 9 edc < my lvl 20 edc

guess wat ill make it easier for u lvl ure sc to 20 and make the only difference lvl 9 edc and lvl 20 edc and ull see the difference

How do you say ure instead of your?

chainlock
10-04-2010, 12:04 PM
There are 100 casts in each BM, both mine and his.

If you just bm and aofc you get 92 casts. If you bm and aura right away, then aofc you get 94/96 depending if you lag. If you bm and wait to extend you get 90, then extend and aofc gives you another 48. Not sure if it will change the calculations, but you won't get 100 skills in without extending. A level 9 edc will go 16 times, level 20 will go 7 with sc and meteor going 6.

This would be if you're already in range and don't have to do any moving. If you have to move you lose some casts.

lentil
10-04-2010, 12:04 PM
Spur
.. Of course L20 edc > L9 edc. But he casts it x17 and you only cast it x7. Look@ big picture rather than only edc.

iSeeYou123
10-04-2010, 12:06 PM
How do you say ure instead of your?

i guess you care so much about his grammar, you Grammar Nazi...

Spur
10-04-2010, 12:15 PM
Spur
.. Of course L20 edc > L9 edc. But he casts it x17 and you only cast it x7. Look@ big picture rather than only edc.

ask ureself this while hes casting those 10 extra edcs am i not casting 10 skills? this is an exact quote from ratza on EU forums

A is your EDC
B are your fillers
C is my EDC

A + B > C does not equal A > C .... basic math.
A < C BUT !!!! A + B > C

he admited himself a+b>c and hes stupid enough to compare a vs c like i would stand there during bm2 doing nuthin while my edcs are on cooldown. this shows lvl 20 edc > lvl 9 edc

BackUpΜENG
10-04-2010, 12:25 PM
ask ureself this while hes casting those 10 extra edcs am i not casting 10 skills?
how does ratza's sht taste like?

RatzaTM
10-04-2010, 12:30 PM
Spur
.. Of course L20 edc > L9 edc. But he casts it x17 and you only cast it x7. Look@ big picture rather than only edc.

Jesus Christ, do you even read what the fvck I just posted ?

Level 20 EDC damage output is 30K for 85 seconds. (7 casts)
Level 9 EDC damage output is 59K for 85 seconds. (17 casts)

The only reason his damage is higher in these 17 casts is due to an additional 10 filler skills which he needs to add to surpass my damage. Saying lvl 20 > lvl 9 is wrong. Saying lvl 20 + 10 skills > lvl 9 is correct.
However, even so, this lvl 20 + skills > lvl 9 is TRUE FOR 15 SECONDS ONLY (cumulated throught the BM). In the other 85 - 15 seconds, my BM will outdamage his, overall, because for each 17 skills that I cast, he needs 10 extra cannons. For each 17 SC that I cast, he will need even more cannons (because the ones he used to complement EDC will not be cooled down yet). Overall, he will run out of cannons, as I explained, and then my superior GM / Compl cast number will nullify and surpass his complementary cannons and provide higher damage overall.

Everyone keeps forgetting that both me and Spur end up casting the same amount of high level cannons (roughly 50) but the other 50 skills, mine are GM / Comp while his are the weakest cannons and toughest lance, that's why his damage suffers in the long run. What he casts as strong cannon, I cast as well, but on top of that, I also cast more Comp which he can't nullify as he does with EDC and strong cannons.

We both cast the same amount of strong cannons, so from where does he get the extra cannons to nullify EDC and SC ? Exactly, he doesn't. He would need to cast more cannons than me, but he doesn't, that's why in the long run, my bar comes out 5k ahead. And remember, this is only partial tweaking.


@Spur : You moronic idiot .... YOU ARE THE ONE COMPARING LVL 20 to LEVEL 9 NOT ME. YOU ARE THE ONE SAYING A > C not ME !!!! I told you you need to add +B in order to make the comparison valid.

A + B > C means 29K + 31K > 59K , WHICH IS TRUE ( I told you I agree to that)

As long as you write lvl 20 > lvl 9 you are WRONG !!!!! You must write A + B > C, or lvl 20 + fillers > lvl 9
But you didn't write it that way, you wrote it A > C, which means lvl 20 > lvl 9 , which is not true, because 29K can never be higher than 59K, you god damn re-tard. Go back to school, I'm done with your stupidity. Fvcking Christ, you are one stupid american.