Allright, I conceide defeat for now EST! (GM's must at least take a peek)

[PSBeardy]

And Snow is correct on a few points, Yes, best outcome he would have is refund of non expirable cashop Items and cash value of his account and gear if sold to third party. Pay up front or micro transactions type games actually have nothing to do with whether he can show damages from the banning or loss of account. This would be based off whether or not there is any monetary value to said account, and there is at least some proveable monetary value to certain accounts, even alz has a going monetary value (not only from third parties, but also set in cash shop items like the potions that can be sold for alz via NPC) remember that TOS's are not binding for any number of reasons the most is you cannot agree away rights, well unless you you sign up for the Military, but even then.... Anyway the point is whether or not it is free to play or not he can still claim monetary damages from the ban or loss, as long as he can prove no culpibilty. Again I will stress it would be an epic waste of everyones time.......

[Killa]

Snow and Beardeh (:d)
You're both right. I probably would get laughed out of any courtroom, and it would be stressing my money out at the moment, but:
The biggest thing, the thing that would make me say I just don't care, is I'm not doing this just for myself. I'm doing this for every cabaler that had this exact same problem.
My point:
I'm pretty sure I could convince others to join my cause if I actually showed up and protested that they do something.
The facts:
We users outnumber the people at that company.
Enough complaints to the the BBB (Better Business Buro) and I have no doubt they would do something.
If they showed me any sign that they were doing ANYTHING to help the situation, I'd be a lot more comfortable in waiting.
Discussing this with you guys has helped me see a more senseable solution to the problem.

The fact that I'm doing this to get this issue resolved for ALL the cabalers is what would allow me to stand in that courtroom and get tossed out on my butt.
After all, my soul purpose in this world is to make the videogame world a better place, both online and off.
Thank you guys for being respectful btw, just tossing this idea back and forth is helping others realize they can make a difference. Maybe not alone, but with others.

[PSBeardy]

Well I would once again try and offer you the advice of picking a saner battle to fight. The BBB will have zero effect in this situation, mostly cause when was last time you checked a BBB status before trying out a video game..... Also any retainer for a Lawyer is going to be due prior to filing a case as no one in their right mind will take this on contingency. Just saying I understand you feel moral outrage and all but this is a battle not worth fighting. I will wish you good luck though in your endeavor.


Ohh BTW its Sole not soul.....srry was bothering me, and yes I know thats anal retentive and all.

[Valdoroth]

Agreed on most of this post as well as learned a few things. I'm military too and I get a little flustered when a company's system fails to do what it is supposed to do. When you purchase a bunch of pixels, I don't see why they should fail in producing said purchased item(s) since it completely free to them to give.
I myself am out of $28 because when I made a diamond+gps purchase on august 12th last year, the system said it was on standby. It still says that to this day and I never recieved my diamond service. I sent 3 tickets over the course of 3 months and they have still not responded to any of them. I can't send anymore bcs they limited the system to 3 tickets. The biggest problem with this limit is when players like myself become stuck because the tickets become too old that they are never looked at and get buried underneath every new one that comes in. They need to implement an auto delete for messages 3 months+ or so.
My friend just last week purchased 8k ecoins bcs the main thing she does is collect costumes, so she was going to purchase a few of the Christmas one. However, when their emergency maintenance finished, she only had 1.8k ecoins and had not spent any of the 8k. So basically they stole $62 from her and then failed to respond to any of her tickets in any timely manner. Billing should be their first look to be honest since it deals with real world currency that people earned or were given.

If they are at all wondering why the community is getting smaller slowy it is because they are not paying attention to the players well enough. Yes they get rid of botters here and there, but they still lack the personnel to cover everything. Most likely the GM do this as a second job, so they can only spend so many hours working b4 they have to rest for their main job. Most of us cna recall yhe old GA program, which for a time worked pretty efficiently, until the GM from NA got friendly with many of the GA and gave them stuff. Well, one factor in that was that the GA were required to keep in contact with them on a daily basis so naturally they got along well. If they were to remake a similar system but not be as friendly it would probably work fine. The Europe version has many GA and even sub advisors. Perhaps our GM could benefit in talking to the EU GM and learning how they run things to better our community. I've used their Help Desk system before and it is definatley alot more effective for both the players and the GM than our system. If a player has resolved his issue, he can manually close the ticket so the GM don't have to worry about it. They use the Tickets like Facebook's message system so they can keep a constant conversation ofe x time frame until the issue is resolved instead of using 5 tickets to resolve an issue (I once used around 12 tickets just to finally figure out an issue i had because we had to keep sending questions/ responses back and forth)

When EST was first running things they were doing a great job at responding to tickets. After I had been blocked for a purchase I made and it conflicting with my paypal and 9 weeks of trying to figure out what caused it and eventually finding out that it was simply because the system itself had lagged and not shown my payment, they kindly compensated me the loss time as a premium user that I had purchased just the week before it happened. I'm not sure as to why they've slowed down, but if they need help, they should ask the community for volunteers and then just weed out who actually can help effectively (essentially the old GA program). Unlike the old GA system, I wouldn't give them awards per weekly basis for their hard work. Their reward is making a better community for everyone at the expense of some of their personal playing time.

Yea I know I kinda went on a minor tangent there, but my point being is that though we may have issues all the time and we want immediate results, having only a few GM staff working 2-3k players tickets/ gripes/ complaints/ questions/ etc is more than they can handle and that they should try ask for assistance. This kinda correlates to killa saying if player's 'banded together' we could make a difference.

[SigfriedVeini]

Point taken, do you not think I've seen this and actually read the entire policy? It isn't a matter of policy, it's a matter of ethics. I'm not quite sure if you understand me when I say this.

No. If you did then you'd realize that the policy is saying "GM's > you...............................do you accept?". Then here's you saying "hey how come they have the final say on any action taken on my acc......this isn't fair!! I'll name my char Rage01"

[Drognan70]

And Snow is correct on a few points, Yes, best outcome he would have is refund of non expirable cashop Items and cash value of his account and gear if sold to third party. Pay up front or micro transactions type games actually have nothing to do with whether he can show damages from the banning or loss of account. This would be based off whether or not there is any monetary value to said account, and there is at least some proveable monetary value to certain accounts, even alz has a going monetary value (not only from third parties, but also set in cash shop items like the potions that can be sold for alz via NPC) remember that TOS's are not binding for any number of reasons the most is you cannot agree away rights, well unless you you sign up for the Military, but even then.... Anyway the point is whether or not it is free to play or not he can still claim monetary damages from the ban or loss, as long as he can prove no culpibilty. Again I will stress it would be an epic waste of everyones time.......

I would have to agree with this statement, as cash shop item, costing real world money themselves, obvioulsy have an in-game monetary value, and he would, at least, be entitled to his real life money back from cash shop purchases, IMO.

[sn0wXz]

No a court wouldnt be binded to the Terms of use, but the terms of use with the agreement of user are sign up would null any chance at him even obtaining the refund at all.

2.3.2 YOU UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT ONCE YOU AUTHORIZE US OR OTHER DESIGNATED PAYMENT SERVICE TO CHARGE YOUR CREDIT CARD FOR A CERTAIN AMOUNT, SUCH AMOUNT SHALL UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES BE REFUNDABLE, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, UPON TERMINATION OF YOUR ACCOUNT FOR ANY REASON, TERMINATION OF THIS AGREEMENT, TERMINATION OF THE ITEM SHOP AND/OR THE DISCONTINUATION OF THE SERVICE.
Certain Cash Items have an expiration date, while others have no expiration date ("Permanent Items"). Each Cash Item that you obtain using eCoins or Game Points will be included in your Account until the earlier of that Cash Item's expiration date (if it is not a Permanent Item), your Account’s expiration or termination date, or such date when the Service ends. REGARDLESS OF THE CONSIDERATION OFFERED OR PAID IN EXCHANGE FOR CASH ITEMS, YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY OWNERSHIP RIGHTS IN THE CASH ITEMS. We have no liability for "hacking" or loss of your Cash Items from your Account, provided we will use reasonable efforts to replace such items under certain circumstances in our reasonable discretion. We have no obligation or responsibility to and will not reimburse you for any Cash Item or any experience lost due to your violations of this and any other Company rules, policies, notices and/or agreements..

[PSBeardy]

No a court wouldnt be binded to the Terms of use, but the terms of use with the agreement of user are sign up would null any chance at him even obtaining the refund at all.

Actually the TOS is not binding legally, it really wouldn't be worth the paper it was printed on if it were, well you know printed on paper. These companies bank on the fact that it is not worth the time or money to try and recoup your investment in court. Like I have said 3 or 4 times in this thread you can not agree away your rights..... many many cases would substantiate this as precedent.

[Valdoroth]

No a court wouldnt be binded to the Terms of use, but the terms of use with the agreement of user are sign up would null any chance at him even obtaining the refund at all.

Also note that it says several times that it is only IF you violate the TOS of the site, but more often than not its an error on their part, with no violations imparted. In killa's case he has not violated anything. Also, why would they actually make a topic in the Help Desk under Billing that says Refund Cach if they don't actually give refunds?

[PSBeardy]

On top of that you cannot make a clause in any binding contract that states you can change all the terms at will, it just is not something that would hold up in any court. The very concept nulifies tort law it is just not binding and most lawyers would laugh thier heads off, along with the Judge.