Allright, I conceide defeat for now EST! (GM's must at least take a peek)

[Killa]

Ok, so I must admit, I am pretty steamed about what happened to my old character, and GM's if you don't see this and some do fine, but:
I am back into the game, I don't need my old character since I've started Rage01. I will try to transfer him (My old character Raganok) anyway since he is still blocked, I don't know how that will go.:mad:
I see you ARE doing something to make the game a better place, with all the bug fixes and stuff, so I as a customer am happy with that.
Things are getting easier to figure out after being gone so long, since the UI is improving.:cool:

I ultimately have decided since you fixed my ecoin buying ability that I WILL NOT SUE, since everything is in order for now, but I'm still very cautious about your company. There is no customer contact number to use, which still bothers me somewhat, but I guess your company is still going through changes since the transfer. I'll be keeping my very dedicated eye on you guys. ;)

[Venus_Noob]

Lol. -1 and +1 for giving me a laugh.

[Rs071822]

lmao this post is halarious!

[Berserk_Fury]

I ultimately have decided since you fixed my ecoin buying ability that I WILL NOT SUE, since everything is in order for now, but I'm still very cautious about your company. There is no customer contact number to use, which still bothers me somewhat, but I guess your company is still going through changes since the transfer. I'll be keeping my very dedicated eye on you guys. ;)

Hey bro, try reading the TOS then say that again?

[149BL?]

hemad

[CuteReign]

lols.

[Killa]

Hey bro, try reading the TOS then say that again?

Remember, the game switched company hands, and I have a statement from them that somewhere along the lines my character got transferred WITHOUT my knowledge. They said they were investigating it and would get back to me. I'm still waiting for that, and both the emails are saved in my inbox on my cabal profile. So what were you saying about a TOS? :D

[Tysukiomi]

paragraph one section 2 claims they can change the rules of tos whenever they have to
;)

[Tysukiomi]

We reserve the right at any time to:
•Change the terms and conditions of this Agreement;
•Change the Service, including terminating, eliminating, supplementing, modifying, adding to or discontinuing any content or data on or feature of the Service or the hours that the Service is available;

there ya go

[PSBeardy]

Yes the TOS claims many things, most of which if you spent enough money on a good lawyer would count for little to nothing in court. Dirty little secret in law is you can not actually sign or agree away your rights regardless of what contract says. Keeping all that in mind since this is a Foreign Company doing business in US good luck with any lawsuit lol.

[Tysukiomi]

Yes the TOS claims many things, most of which if you spent enough money on a good lawyer would count for little to nothing in court. Dirty little secret in law is you can not actually sign or agree away your rights regardless of what contract says. Keeping all that in mind since this is a Foreign Company doing business in US good luck with any lawsuit lol.

oh well, still funny how he is so mad about this :)

[Hatsuho]

how cute, 12 year old wants to sue ;D

[Killa]

how cute, 12 year old wants to sue ;D

(Sigh) It really is not that big of a deal. I'm simply a user that wants my old character back because I have so many old memories attached to him and the old guild he was in called <Imperia> and then <Fatalis>. I work for the United States Navy at the moment and I've been going through a lot of stress. I miss my family and the company pretty much said they would help me get this issue resolved.
I'm disappointed, not mad or angry because I expected more from a company that should know what it is doing.
Even one person can spend enough time to press a button to ban a bot, it should only take one person to help me get this issue resolved. Now that I have started another character, I'm not too concerned, but I would still like to pursue the issue of getting my old character back (WITH HIS OLD ITEMS) since I still have recpepts from the old OST account I saved. I actually have it pulled up right now and am looking at all the items I purchased, exactly as I left it. If they have a problem with this I'll fight it, because like I said,
It really isn't that hard of an issue to resolve.
(Also, I'm 23 and I live on my own with the money I make.)

[Killa]

oh well, still funny how he is so mad about this :)

I wouldn't say mad, and why is this issue funny? The exact same thing could happen to you in some other game.

[Killa]

I will look into this more, I need to brush up on my knowledge of the justice system in America anyway. Thank you for the help.

[Killa]

We reserve the right at any time to:
•Change the terms and conditions of this Agreement;
•Change the Service, including terminating, eliminating, supplementing, modifying, adding to or discontinuing any content or data on or feature of the Service or the hours that the Service is available;

there ya go

Point taken, do you not think I've seen this and actually read the entire policy? It isn't a matter of policy, it's a matter of ethics. I'm not quite sure if you understand me when I say this.

[PSBeardy]

Point taken, do you not think I've seen this and actually read the entire policy? It isn't a matter of policy, it's a matter of ethics. I'm not quite sure if you understand me when I say this.

Here is the thing, it is unlikely at best that they will give yo back your character. This is for many reasons but the greatest is plainly evident if you read through these forums for say more then a minute....thier customer service is dismal at best and non-existant most of the time. The other big reason is they are more likely to collect more money from you if your forced to level up another new nub. Essentially what I am trying to get across is there is no real good motivating factor for them to do anything. Now you would have to balance the estimated cost of your attorney, court fees and missed time at work with what you may stand to recover and then discide whether those costs are worth the potential gain. Look I think we can all appreciate a fight over percieved ethics violations, but hey sometimes it doesn't make difference either way.

[sn0wXz]

You would get laughed outta any courtroom, just sayin'

(woob doobs i paid for pixels woob doobs)

[PSBeardy]

You would get laughed outta any courtroom, just sayin'

(woob doobs i paid for pixels woob doobs)
Actually not, there is precedent with i think up-wards of 20 or so successful suits against Blizzard with WOW bans, the issue with Cabal is it would be an international case, not strictly US and as such would be 100X's more costly, so like I before, Good Luck its not impossible, just stupid fiscally.

[sn0wXz]

Actually not, there is precedent with i think up-wards of 20 or so successful suits against Blizzard with WOW bans, the issue with Cabal is it would be an international case, not strictly US and as such would be 100X's more costly, so like I before, Good Luck its not impossible, just stupid fiscally.

EST is free to play, your not required to make purchases to access the game and its features, unlike WoW.

plus if your talking bout a service you pay to receive that has similar type tos as est (reserving the right to suspend/terminate an account at any time for any/no reason) then its two different situations, because at the most the people would get from a silly lawsuit like that is their money back from the original game purchase. Thats because most states have consumer-rights laws not based on the service but on the refund of the purchase due to un-substantiated blocking or banning of any account/credit card.

The players in est dont pay a cent to sign up, the game is free itself; all the costumes ect hes bought are all copyright material for est, he doesnt own them, its just pixels in his inventory. It would be more then a fiscal issue, if he has money to waste on a court procedure that would cost more then the a copy of the game and ip switch, then hes just down right retarded. (ofcourse in this issue est's game is free so he really has nothing to complain about)

btw i dont get where all the helpdesk hate comes from to be honest, ive submitted 3 tickets, just since the 19th of dec, 1 bot report, 2 other issues, relatively complex; and they were taken care of respectively. Remember, hes claiming his account was "transferred without his premission"; with that hes implying someone else had access to his account via it being compromised, or hes trying to imply its est's fault that someone knew his info (email and access to that email) ect... im sure they just didnt hand it over for anyone who said im this guy durr hurr; cuz u woulda seen u know....a somebody having thier acct stolen, with good gear? erm brb still loling

[PSBeardy]

And Snow is correct on a few points, Yes, best outcome he would have is refund of non expirable cashop Items and cash value of his account and gear if sold to third party. Pay up front or micro transactions type games actually have nothing to do with whether he can show damages from the banning or loss of account. This would be based off whether or not there is any monetary value to said account, and there is at least some proveable monetary value to certain accounts, even alz has a going monetary value (not only from third parties, but also set in cash shop items like the potions that can be sold for alz via NPC) remember that TOS's are not binding for any number of reasons the most is you cannot agree away rights, well unless you you sign up for the Military, but even then.... Anyway the point is whether or not it is free to play or not he can still claim monetary damages from the ban or loss, as long as he can prove no culpibilty. Again I will stress it would be an epic waste of everyones time.......

[Killa]

Snow and Beardeh (:d)
You're both right. I probably would get laughed out of any courtroom, and it would be stressing my money out at the moment, but:
The biggest thing, the thing that would make me say I just don't care, is I'm not doing this just for myself. I'm doing this for every cabaler that had this exact same problem.
My point:
I'm pretty sure I could convince others to join my cause if I actually showed up and protested that they do something.
The facts:
We users outnumber the people at that company.
Enough complaints to the the BBB (Better Business Buro) and I have no doubt they would do something.
If they showed me any sign that they were doing ANYTHING to help the situation, I'd be a lot more comfortable in waiting.
Discussing this with you guys has helped me see a more senseable solution to the problem.

The fact that I'm doing this to get this issue resolved for ALL the cabalers is what would allow me to stand in that courtroom and get tossed out on my butt.
After all, my soul purpose in this world is to make the videogame world a better place, both online and off.
:) Thank you guys for being respectful btw, just tossing this idea back and forth is helping others realize they can make a difference. Maybe not alone, but with others.

[PSBeardy]

Well I would once again try and offer you the advice of picking a saner battle to fight. The BBB will have zero effect in this situation, mostly cause when was last time you checked a BBB status before trying out a video game..... Also any retainer for a Lawyer is going to be due prior to filing a case as no one in their right mind will take this on contingency. Just saying I understand you feel moral outrage and all but this is a battle not worth fighting. I will wish you good luck though in your endeavor.


Ohh BTW its Sole not soul.....srry was bothering me, and yes I know thats anal retentive and all.

[Valdoroth]

Agreed on most of this post as well as learned a few things. I'm military too and I get a little flustered when a company's system fails to do what it is supposed to do. When you purchase a bunch of pixels, I don't see why they should fail in producing said purchased item(s) since it completely free to them to give.
I myself am out of $28 because when I made a diamond+gps purchase on august 12th last year, the system said it was on standby. It still says that to this day and I never recieved my diamond service. I sent 3 tickets over the course of 3 months and they have still not responded to any of them. I can't send anymore bcs they limited the system to 3 tickets. The biggest problem with this limit is when players like myself become stuck because the tickets become too old that they are never looked at and get buried underneath every new one that comes in. They need to implement an auto delete for messages 3 months+ or so.
My friend just last week purchased 8k ecoins bcs the main thing she does is collect costumes, so she was going to purchase a few of the Christmas one. However, when their emergency maintenance finished, she only had 1.8k ecoins and had not spent any of the 8k. So basically they stole $62 from her and then failed to respond to any of her tickets in any timely manner. Billing should be their first look to be honest since it deals with real world currency that people earned or were given.

If they are at all wondering why the community is getting smaller slowy it is because they are not paying attention to the players well enough. Yes they get rid of botters here and there, but they still lack the personnel to cover everything. Most likely the GM do this as a second job, so they can only spend so many hours working b4 they have to rest for their main job. Most of us cna recall yhe old GA program, which for a time worked pretty efficiently, until the GM from NA got friendly with many of the GA and gave them stuff. Well, one factor in that was that the GA were required to keep in contact with them on a daily basis so naturally they got along well. If they were to remake a similar system but not be as friendly it would probably work fine. The Europe version has many GA and even sub advisors. Perhaps our GM could benefit in talking to the EU GM and learning how they run things to better our community. I've used their Help Desk system before and it is definatley alot more effective for both the players and the GM than our system. If a player has resolved his issue, he can manually close the ticket so the GM don't have to worry about it. They use the Tickets like Facebook's message system so they can keep a constant conversation ofe x time frame until the issue is resolved instead of using 5 tickets to resolve an issue (I once used around 12 tickets just to finally figure out an issue i had because we had to keep sending questions/ responses back and forth)

When EST was first running things they were doing a great job at responding to tickets. After I had been blocked for a purchase I made and it conflicting with my paypal and 9 weeks of trying to figure out what caused it and eventually finding out that it was simply because the system itself had lagged and not shown my payment, they kindly compensated me the loss time as a premium user that I had purchased just the week before it happened. I'm not sure as to why they've slowed down, but if they need help, they should ask the community for volunteers and then just weed out who actually can help effectively (essentially the old GA program). Unlike the old GA system, I wouldn't give them awards per weekly basis for their hard work. Their reward is making a better community for everyone at the expense of some of their personal playing time.

Yea I know I kinda went on a minor tangent there, but my point being is that though we may have issues all the time and we want immediate results, having only a few GM staff working 2-3k players tickets/ gripes/ complaints/ questions/ etc is more than they can handle and that they should try ask for assistance. This kinda correlates to killa saying if player's 'banded together' we could make a difference.

[SigfriedVeini]

Point taken, do you not think I've seen this and actually read the entire policy? It isn't a matter of policy, it's a matter of ethics. I'm not quite sure if you understand me when I say this.

No. If you did then you'd realize that the policy is saying "GM's > you...............................do you accept?". Then here's you saying "hey how come they have the final say on any action taken on my acc......this isn't fair!! I'll name my char Rage01"

[Drognan70]

And Snow is correct on a few points, Yes, best outcome he would have is refund of non expirable cashop Items and cash value of his account and gear if sold to third party. Pay up front or micro transactions type games actually have nothing to do with whether he can show damages from the banning or loss of account. This would be based off whether or not there is any monetary value to said account, and there is at least some proveable monetary value to certain accounts, even alz has a going monetary value (not only from third parties, but also set in cash shop items like the potions that can be sold for alz via NPC) remember that TOS's are not binding for any number of reasons the most is you cannot agree away rights, well unless you you sign up for the Military, but even then.... Anyway the point is whether or not it is free to play or not he can still claim monetary damages from the ban or loss, as long as he can prove no culpibilty. Again I will stress it would be an epic waste of everyones time.......


I would have to agree with this statement, as cash shop item, costing real world money themselves, obvioulsy have an in-game monetary value, and he would, at least, be entitled to his real life money back from cash shop purchases, IMO.

[sn0wXz]

No a court wouldnt be binded to the Terms of use, but the terms of use with the agreement of user are sign up would null any chance at him even obtaining the refund at all.



2.3.2 YOU UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT ONCE YOU AUTHORIZE US OR OTHER DESIGNATED PAYMENT SERVICE TO CHARGE YOUR CREDIT CARD FOR A CERTAIN AMOUNT, SUCH AMOUNT SHALL UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES BE REFUNDABLE, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, UPON TERMINATION OF YOUR ACCOUNT FOR ANY REASON, TERMINATION OF THIS AGREEMENT, TERMINATION OF THE ITEM SHOP AND/OR THE DISCONTINUATION OF THE SERVICE.
Certain Cash Items have an expiration date, while others have no expiration date ("Permanent Items"). Each Cash Item that you obtain using eCoins or Game Points will be included in your Account until the earlier of that Cash Item's expiration date (if it is not a Permanent Item), your Account’s expiration or termination date, or such date when the Service ends. REGARDLESS OF THE CONSIDERATION OFFERED OR PAID IN EXCHANGE FOR CASH ITEMS, YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY OWNERSHIP RIGHTS IN THE CASH ITEMS. We have no liability for "hacking" or loss of your Cash Items from your Account, provided we will use reasonable efforts to replace such items under certain circumstances in our reasonable discretion. We have no obligation or responsibility to and will not reimburse you for any Cash Item or any experience lost due to your violations of this and any other Company rules, policies, notices and/or agreements..

[PSBeardy]

No a court wouldnt be binded to the Terms of use, but the terms of use with the agreement of user are sign up would null any chance at him even obtaining the refund at all.

Actually the TOS is not binding legally, it really wouldn't be worth the paper it was printed on if it were, well you know printed on paper. These companies bank on the fact that it is not worth the time or money to try and recoup your investment in court. Like I have said 3 or 4 times in this thread you can not agree away your rights..... many many cases would substantiate this as precedent.

[Valdoroth]

No a court wouldnt be binded to the Terms of use, but the terms of use with the agreement of user are sign up would null any chance at him even obtaining the refund at all.
Also note that it says several times that it is only IF you violate the TOS of the site, but more often than not its an error on their part, with no violations imparted. In killa's case he has not violated anything. Also, why would they actually make a topic in the Help Desk under Billing that says Refund Cach if they don't actually give refunds?

[PSBeardy]

On top of that you cannot make a clause in any binding contract that states you can change all the terms at will, it just is not something that would hold up in any court. The very concept nulifies tort law it is just not binding and most lawyers would laugh thier heads off, along with the Judge.

[Killa]

Epic forum discussion +1. I was wondering when one of these would occur again.
(Thanks for correcting me btw, it was sole. XD)
I'm still trying to figure out though, like Valdoroth said, shouldn't I be entited to at least my money back since I have the recepts and everything from my old purchase?
As a matter of fact I'll post a picture this time. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how the company internally transferred their own policy, if the company changed hands? I know they had to do it legally somehow, someway. If my character was transferred without my permission by someone at OSTsoft, which is what they told me in the email, and I have proof that it was my character, why was I told I can't get him back? Thats something thats been on my mind a bit lately.
They gave me their word they would investigate. Also, yes I named my character out of this problem lol. It was a spur of the moment thing but it stuck. :)
I waited.
And waited.
And waited.
(I played cabal a bit)
And here I am again, still no character, nothing.
http://i51.tinypic.com/2vahwes.jpg

[sn0wXz]

Epic forum discussion +1. I was wondering when one of these would occur again.
(Thanks for correcting me btw, it was sole. XD)
I'm still trying to figure out though, like Valdoroth said, shouldn't I be entited to at least my money back since I have the recepts and everything from my old purchase?
As a matter of fact I'll post a picture this time. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how the company internally transferred their own policy, if the company changed hands? I know they had to do it legally somehow, someway. If my character was transferred without my permission by someone at OSTsoft, which is what they told me in the email, and I have proof that it was my character, why was I told I can't get him back? Thats something thats been on my mind a bit lately.
They gave me their word they would investigate. Also, yes I named my character out of this problem lol. It was a spur of the moment thing but it stuck. :)
I waited.
And waited.
And waited.
(I played cabal a bit)
And here I am again, still no character, nothing.
http://i51.tinypic.com/2vahwes.jpg


technically you made those purchases from ogplanet not estsoft...pretty much not worth holding your breath over, i dont think posting anything here will matter, gms review the tickets and decide, probably not going to sway a gms opinion via a forum thread, its not due to lack of believing if you had a character or not, id imagine internal decision is just slower then desired.

you said it was transferred already; there is a problem with that, because it suggests your account was already compromised, i dont know a single person ingame who didnt get to transfer because of some "epic haxors just raping people accts lol". sorry to stretch that out so far but its pretty much the truth....i wouldnt expect a next day recovery of my acct if someone knew my pw ect and transfered it without my knowledge, but i certainly wouldnt want to wait 4 months or watever for a response.

[PSBeardy]

I would agree with Snow your issue is with OGP, and whomever has possesion of the acct now not EST, however OGP was contracted by EST...... I don't know man other to tell you it will/would not be worth the cost at all to pursue. Any outcome for you would be unsatisfactoy, just tough it out and move on, it just is not worth fighting. The other thing to keep in mind is even were you to win, the company wouldn't change its policy, it is easier to fight the 1 or 2 cases a year.

[Killa]

I see. T-T It looks like I really have to bend over and take this. ARGH. I can guarantee you when (Because it's only a matter of time) I come out with my own online game, I will work hard to not let this happen. A learning experience indeed.
(Takes eyeball out of head and prepairs for Cabal to eyerhape his skull)
*Sigh* Offically I have decided not to do anything.
>:(
*grumbles*

[Killa]

Thanks guys. I can only hope noone else has this problem.

[ReknoWunzz]

14. NOTICE FOR CALIFORNIA USERS.
Under California Civil Code Section 1789.3, users of the Service from California are entitled to the following specific consumer rights notice: The Complaint Assistance Unit of the Division of Consumer Services of the California Department of Consumer Affairs may be contacted in writing at ESTsoft, Inc.
 3240 El Camino Real, Suite 150, Irvine, CA 92602, USA.



Hope you live in California ;o