Amp and CD Are Equal To...

[mnslayer27]

Alright, so I've been having a debate with a guildie over what amounts amp and cd are equal to. Here are the standpoints:

Guildie:
Set Amount
-1 Amp = 2 Cd
-Cd = 3-5 Atk (Number doesn't really matter for this debate)

Me:
Percent
-Amp = x% of Base
-Cd = x% of Base

The way I see it, 1 Amp = 2 Cd is understandable, but where does that number for cd come in? Furthermore, amp and cd both say %, and when I attack a mob and get a crit, I see the HP go down by around 2.5 times my normal attack, which corresponds with my theory.

Sorry bout the bias, but I am writing this from my perspective :P

Anyways, let me know what you guys think.

[plzbuffme]

brotoss there's not going to be a rule saying x amp = x cd becoz it is different depending how much attack/cdi/amp you have

[Lann]

u cant calculate it u can only guess around it amp is dependent on ur base attack and their def while crit dmg is totally different

[mnslayer27]

Mhm exactly. To specify a bit more, I look at the expected value, ignoring def, atk/def/flee rate, and skill to be like this...
Note that the numbers entered are what you see in the char screen, i.e. 166% or the like.

A= Amp
B = Base
C = Cd
R = Rate
T = Total

B*(1+A*.01)*(1-R*.01)+B*(1+A*.01)*(1+C*.01)*(R*.01) = T

[plzbuffme]

the most accurate way to calc would be to figure out the average dmg by considering ur rate

but even that's not tru cuz amp wep always gonna say it got higher avg dmg on paper than crt dmg but players will tell u that's not really true in game

[KikuNumber7]

Yeah, people who say Amp = a specific amount or cdi = a specific amount, don't know what they're talking about. There's no set on what amp = to, same with cdi. It all just varies on your base attack. Obviously, someone who has a base atk of 1000's amp is gonna be more effective than someone with a base atk of 800.

[cadacus_ater]

Yeah, people who say Amp = a specific amount or cdi = a specific amount, don't know what they're talking about. There's no set on what amp = to, same with cdi. It all just varies on your base attack. Obviously, someone who has a base atk of 1000's amp is gonna be more effective than someone with a base atk of 800.

The DPS ratio of roughly 1 amp : 2 cdi holds for skills regardless of whether you have 800 attack or 1000 attack, even assuming 50 rate (this ratio begins to fail slightly as you compare higher values, becoming more dependent on the skill used). Everything is calculated off of base attack, so both amp and cdi are affected by it. A ratio for the damage output of amp and cdi on crit is roughly 5 amp : 8 cdi (this ratio isn't perfect and varies depending on what skill you are calculating for).

Making equivalencies for attack, amp and cdi is a little more complicated when calculating for attack skills, since they have built-in modifiers, i.e. their own rate, damage, skill amp, add attack and the 'orange text' that make calculations less straightforward. Orange text skills are not at all intuitive for PvE calculations, but suffice it to say they do roughly double the damage of a non-orange text skill with equal rate, damage, skill amp and add attack modifiers. However, orange text skills are calculated in the same way as all the other skills in PvP. In PvP non-orange text skills do about 1/4 of the damage they do in PvE and orange text skills do about 1/8 of the damage they do in PvE. Please note that the orange text skill conversion from PvE to PvP isn't quite that simple as there are a few factors that are ignored with such an estimation.

As an aside, add damage in PvE only adds damage to the final calculated value, after calculations for attack, amp, cdi, defense, debuffs, etc have been completed. Also, the approximate dps ratio of amp to attack excluding bm2 is usually 1:5 (this ratio is VERY rough, attack ratios are often unreliable but this is a decent average to start with if you are lazy). For cdi to attack the ratio is roughly 1:3 excluding bm2 (again these ratios aren't perfect, but they are helpful for comparing weapons).

I use a damage calculator developed by LastHour and I've tested my damage output against its calculations a number of times with different weapon setups to verify its accuracy. From this calculator, the damage formulas for attack skills (excluding orange text skills in PvE and assuming no bm2) should be something like this, if you ignore enemy defense, debuffs like hard luck and panic cry, and add damage.

Non-crit:
Attack*(1+(Amp+Skill_Amp)*0.01) + Skill_Add_Attack=Non_Crit

Crit:
Non_Crit*(1+(CDI+Skill_CDI)*0.01)=Crit

Average DPS:
(1-Crit_Rate*0.01)*Non_Crit/Cast_Time + (Crit_Rate*0.01)*Crit/Cast_Time=Average_DPS

[KikuNumber7]

The DPS ratio of roughly 1 amp : 2 cdi holds for skills regardless of whether you have 800 attack or 1000 attack, even assuming 50 rate. Everything is calculated off of base attack, so both amp and cdi are affected by it. A ratio for the damage output of amp and cdi on crit is roughly 5 amp : 8 cdi (this ratio isn't perfect and varies depending on what skill you are calculating for).

Making equivalencies for attack, amp and cdi is a little more complicated when calculating for attack skills, since they have built-in modifiers, i.e. their own rate, damage, skill amp, add attack and the 'orange text' that make calculations less straightforward. Orange text skills are not at all intuitive for PvE calculations, but suffice it to say they do roughly double the damage of a non-orange text skill with equal rate, damage, skill amp and add attack modifiers. However, orange text skills are calculated in the same way as all the other skills in PvP. In PvP non-orange text skills do about 1/4 of the damage they do in PvE and orange text skills do about 1/8 of the damage they do in PvE. Please note that the orange text skill conversion from PvE to PvP isn't quite that simple as there are a few factors that are ignored with such an estimation.

As an aside, add damage in PvE only adds damage to the final calculated value, after calculations for attack, amp, cdi, defense, debuffs, etc have been completed

I use a damage calculator developed by LastHour and I've tested my damage output against its calculations a number of times to verify its accuracy. From this calculator, the damage formulas for attack skills (excluding orange text skills in PvE and assuming no bm2) should be something like this, if you ignore enemy defense, debuffs like hard luck and panic cry, and add damage.

Non-crit:
Attack*(1+(Amp+Skill_Amp)*0.01) + Skill_Add_Attack=Non_Crit

Crit:
Non_Crit*(1+(CDI+Skill_CDI)*0.01)=Crit

Average DPS:
(1-Crit_Rate*0.01)*Non_Crit/Cast_Time + (Crit_Rate*0.01)*Crit/Cast_Time=Average_DPS

I'm not sure if you're agreeing to what i'm saying in a complicated sort of way. But either way, what i was saying was amp varies off base atk. i hear ppl all the time saying "1 amp = 7 atk" Personally, I don't think that's necessarily true. If you have low atk, there's no way 1 amp is gonna = to 7 atk. sometimes if you have really high atk, 1 amp will = more than just 7 atk. It all really just depends.

[cadacus_ater]

I'm not sure if you're agreeing to what i'm saying in a complicated sort of way. But either way, what i was saying was amp varies off base atk. i hear ppl all the time saying "1 amp = 7 atk" Personally, I don't think that's necessarily true. If you have low atk, there's no way 1 amp is gonna = to 7 atk. sometimes if you have really high atk, 1 amp will = more than just 7 atk. It all really just depends.

Well, making a true equivalency is very impractical, but I was trying to point out that there are fairly solid ratios that can help you when you don't feel like calculating it yourself. Equating attack to anything is the hardest to do since it is so dependent on your total attack.

[Valdoroth]

I can confirm that LastHour's Calculator is accurate as I tested it with both my FB and FS. Also, it has a built in option to calculate if a mob has x def or HL/ PC are in play. Overall, high amp tends to lean towards pve and high cd leans towards pvp. Just remember that after 200% all cd is 1/2 it's normal value, so 210% is actually 205%.

To create an accurate ratio would depend entirely on the setting (pve? pvp? war?) and the target's defense and also if it is combo (adds 0,10, or 20% cd to hits). Which have enough interbetween changing values that it's too difficult to do, unless you have ALOT of free time. As I have alot of free time, I may delve into this for fun.

[cadacus_ater]

I can confirm that LastHour's Calculator is accurate as I tested it with both my FB and FS. Also, it has a built in option to calculate if a mob has x def or HL/ PC are in play. Overall, high amp tends to lean towards pve and high cd leans towards pvp. Just remember that after 200% all cd is 1/2 it's normal value, so 210% is actually 205%.

To create an accurate ratio would depend entirely on the setting (pve? pvp? war?) and the target's defense and also if it is combo (adds 0,10, or 20% cd to hits). Which have enough interbetween changing values that it's too difficult to do, unless you have ALOT of free time. As I have alot of free time, I may delve into this for fun.

I never quite understood the whole combo adding damage thing...or at least I haven't observed it myself. The only thing I could see it doing is increasing the minimum damage you do on a non-critical hit for melee characters (no idea about magic characters though). As far as I know, crits never vary using the same gear unless a buff or debuff of some kind is in effect.

Feel free to chime in if you can help me get this straight :)

[Valdoroth]

I never quite understood the whole combo adding damage thing...or at least I haven't observed it myself. The only thing I could see it doing is increasing the minimum damage you do on a non-critical hit for melee characters (no idea about magic characters though). As far as I know, crits never vary using the same gear unless a buff or debuff of some kind is in effect.

Feel free to chime in if you can help me get this straight :)
Actually, it's easy to test this. Fair are 0%, good is 10% and excellent is 20%. Try it with magic attacks as their damage is fixed and you'll be able to see the difference easier.

[plzbuffme]

combo on perfect does increase dmg


i thought every1 knew this

[mnslayer27]

I use a damage calculator developed by LastHour...

Non-crit:
Attack*(1+(Amp+Skill_Amp)*0.01) + Skill_Add_Attack=Non_Crit

Crit:
Non_Crit*(1+(CDI+Skill_CDI)*0.01)=Crit

Average DPS:
(1-Crit_Rate*0.01)*Non_Crit/Cast_Time + (Crit_Rate*0.01)*Crit/Cast_Time=Average_DPS

Thanks, that is what I was looking for. Looks pretty much the same as mine :D

[kakaka]

wow u guys are tooo serious about this game

[mnslayer27]

wow u guys are tooo serious about this game

The idea is to put your best into everything you do, including gaming. The formulas are a massive help.

[Shinji]

wow u guys are tooo serious about this game
Because this game is hard..
not

[Valdoroth]

or maybe we're that bored?

[jimbo]

brotoss there's not going to be a rule saying x amp = x cd becoz it is different depending how much attack/cdi/amp you have

true but i get what he saying he should have said if u have cd/attack/amp u have is 1 for all of them sept the one he tryingto figure out is the best like if i had 1 attack/1 cd and 2 amp vs 1 attack 2 cd and 1 amp witch is better

[jimbo]

better question what is better 50 amp or 50 crt dmg

[Innovation]

better question who cares

[Valdoroth]

true but i get what he saying he should have said if u have cd/attack/amp u have is 1 for all of them sept the one he tryingto figure out is the best like if i had 1 attack/1 cd and 2 amp vs 1 attack 2 cd and 1 amp witch is better
Well that one isn't too hard to test out using the dmg calculator. Most classes bm2 is stronger with amp, while cd is better for pvp/ war. (pvp shouldn't even be thought about since it's really just whoever crits first and second). So what does he want to be better in? Also, most people don't put into consideration that there is resist cd/ amp too, which also is effective.

[jimbo]

Well that one isn't too hard to test out using the dmg calculator. Most classes bm2 is stronger with amp, while cd is better for pvp/ war. (pvp shouldn't even be thought about since it's really just whoever crits first and second). So what does he want to be better in? Also, most people don't put into consideration that there is resist cd/ amp too, which also is effective.

yea me get your point but i dont go by dmg calculater i put my stats in and it says i do 949 on a ww crit and i do close to 1.3 on ww crit (test it out in pvp against my party member wit 920 def

and i put the enemy def at 900